19 minutes ago, Cpt_Piett said:

Perhaps. For the longest time I had my fps locked to 30 and was a happy camper. Then I upgraded my hardware and realized I could get 50-60 (except at the usual places). Which IS considerably more smooth and fluid with G-Sync. Most noticeable when panning or flying fast and low. I think the era of 30 fps in flight sims is slowly ebbing out. 

Sure, it's going to be better--but is it $3000 better?  It's a hard sell for me and I have plenty of cash, but I'm value conscious as well.   I play devil's advocate mainly for newcomers who actually believe they need $5K worth of hardware to have an incredibly good experience in MSFS which is of course a crock.  I speak only and honestly of how I see these issues and understand fully others may not see things as I do.  I'll be interested to watch the true hardware/FPS junkies as to how they use MSFS after they've achieved 60 real frames plus 60 fake frames as to how they use the simulator.  I think once the quest is over for more and better hardware they may well become bored to tears because so much of what drives them is acquiring new hardware.  I am focused fully on piloting as best I can and it's a challenge especially when "troubleshooting"!

1 minute ago, Ponymetzger said:

 

You can't compare a microstutterfree 60fps with fully 120fps. Nice and stable 120fps is a complete different experience. You will even notice when the frames are dropping below 100. It just feels weird and not fine anymore. There is just no way justifying 60fps over 100+ fps, never, ever. 
 

Oh, okay.  Let me know how 120 FPS works for you when 240 becomes possible...I can hear it now 🤣

2 minutes ago, Noel said:

Oh, okay.  Let me know how 120 FPS works for you when 240 becomes possible...I can hear it now 🤣

You still dont get it but its ok. Chalkboard > Laptop I guess?😉 

Edited October 23, 20223 yr by Ponymetzger

All this looks good if you have the money and really need an upgrade. So far, my 8086K and 2080ti do a pretty good job keeping at 30fps (smooth, mind you) with TLOD and LOD at 100, all traffic at 50 and with about 700gb of payware and freeware scenery, planes, mods etc. The sim looks good enough without needing to crank out the LOD or TLOD which for some of us really doesn't make the biggest difference for immersion sake.

7 minutes ago, Noel said:

Sure, it's going to be better--but is it $3000 better? 

Yes. It's one of these things you have to experience to believe. No amount of words can do it justice. 

Edited October 23, 20223 yr by Ianrivaldosmith

As a side note, does anybody know what commercial sims need as a minimum FPS? I once read it was 150? I could be wrong. I would be very very surprised if it was locked at 30 regardless of how smooth it was! 

I would imagine it has to be 'fluid'. To me, the feeling of fluid comes when you hit 100 frames or more... And  I say that with experience of handling real aircraft. I suppose if I were to try and differentiate between smooth and fluid, that would be it. You can have smooth, and then you can have next level smooth AND fluid...  TrackIR exacerbates the issue of frames below 60. Might be smooth, but it still skips. Above 100 frames, none of these issues exist. It FEELS like you are in the world, the fluidity of it makes the dynamics come alive.

 

I am looking for ways to explain the difference, like I say it has to be seen and felt to be believed. Those who know, know! 

Edited October 23, 20223 yr by Ianrivaldosmith

20 minutes ago, Noel said:

My sense is many who will go out and buy a 4090 to get 120 FPS really never optimized their sim fully.

People have ALWAYS bought new hardware and upgraded their computers. Now is not different. And btw people have different preferences, why is that so hard to accept? Some will be early adopters of new tech, some prefer to wait. At least you don’t seem afflicted by the so-called disease, so you should be happy as you seem to enjoy the sim with your settings. 

Maybe this song will cheer you up:

 

24 minutes ago, Noel said:

Oh, okay.  Let me know how 120 FPS works for you when 240 becomes possible...I can hear it now 🤣

I suspect this is where your current argument would be worth its salt. And only when it would be imo. Because going from 30 to 120 is MASSIVE. But going from 120-240, not so much. 30 to 120 is generational leaps. But we should already of been here years ago I reckon. Imagine if MS hadn't abandoned FS years ago, who knows what stage we would be at now. We had a decade of stagnate growth. Decades of locking to 30 because the software was poorly written. Now they are overcoming these limitations with the help of modern hardware.  Yeah we had XP11, but the only technological breakthrough they made was using Vulkan. 

Edited October 23, 20223 yr by Ianrivaldosmith

5 minutes ago, Ianrivaldosmith said:

...does anybody know what commercial sims need as a minimum FPS? I once read it was 150? 

...The certification of the Level D simulator requires the frame rate to be locked at 60 apparently. 

That I just read.  An instructor on Level D simulators said this:  

Yes, I am a simulator instructor and we have a number of Level D Full Flight Simulators and Level 6 Flight Training Devices. We also have a few Level 4 devices that are used as procedures trainers....Yes, I am a simulator instructor and we have a number of Level D Full Flight Simulators and Level 6 Flight Training Devices. We also have a few Level 4 devices that are used as procedures trainers.

This was from KenG here.  He DID NOT mention frame rate in his long post about commercial simulators but he made that major point (his caps) about stutters.  I rest my case:  FREEDOM FROM STUTTERS trumps fastest possible frame rates.  Of course if your sim is no optimized you can always use brute force to get around that.

9 minutes ago, Ianrivaldosmith said:

But we should allready of been  here years ago I  reckon. Imagine if MS hadn't abandoned FS years ago, who knows what stage we would be at now. We had a decade of stagnate growth.

Exactly. We’re in a very good spot now as simmers with this sim, these addons - and new hardware that enables us to enjoy it all on a level that has not been possible before. For me that’s very exciting. And if someone wants to refer to me as a sick (remember it’s a disease) fps-junkie - then so be it. It’s not like I’m trashing people who have other preferences - it should go both ways. 

I might even add that a tad more respect and a tad less name-calling could go a long way. Even on the internet 🙄

Edited October 23, 20223 yr by Cpt_Piett

12 minutes ago, Cpt_Piett said:

People have ALWAYS bought new hardware and upgraded their computers. Now is not different. And btw people have different preferences, why is that so hard to accept?

Nothing "hard to accept" I can plainly see what drives the thinking here.  I can't relate personally as I'm far more focused on piloting than upgrading hardware.  It will be fun to see how long it lasts, the thrill from the latest upgrade of another $3K.  I predict it will be good for 3-6 months tops after which some may abandon the activity outright when there are no more addons to install, and the FPS issue (hopefully) is good enough.  But then again, when 240 comes out, look out...

 

2 minutes ago, Noel said:

Nothing "hard to accept" I can plainly see what drives the thinking here.  I can't relate personally as I'm far more focused on piloting than upgrading hardware.  It will be fun to see how long it lasts, the thrill from the latest upgrade of another $3K.  I predict it will be good for 3-6 months tops after which some may abandon the activity outright when there are no more addons to install, and the FPS issue (hopefully) is good enough.  But then again, when 240 comes out, look out...

 

Puh never seen a guy so stubborn. Especially in such a discussion where we have facts. 

Edited October 23, 20223 yr by Ponymetzger

Which "fact", you mean the "120 feels smoother...and....60 fps isn't smooth", that fact?

It does not feel smoother. It is smoother. 

But a discussion with you makes absolutely no sense here. 

MSFS is an entertainment platform, therefore this 30 or 60fps discussion is complete useless. You can't compare it to LEVEL D Sims and so on. 

Entertainment means fun and joy and 60fps are miles away from that. 

If I want a 60fps sim, I will go to my sim checks at the LFT in Berlin.

60 fps per se means nothing, this has been possible a long time ago, the question though is: at what scenery quality, complexity and resolution. 60 fps at the currently most complex airports, weather depiction, traffic, complex aircraft? I have seen that only in MSFS, not in any Level-D that I have flown in and they don't need that at all, we need it because we real-hardcore-serious-studio-level gamers, very few of those have a pilot license, miss all the commercial Level-Ds experience: real to life cockpits, motion and the feeling of: this time it really matters if you crash. in those you don't miss anything we discuss here, definitely not their admittedly poor graphics. otherwise they would have it. adding $ 0.002  million extra for an RTX 4090? it's like adding  $ 2.0 more for an RTX 4090 express shipping cost.

Edited October 24, 20223 yr by turbomax