4 hours ago, UrgentSiesta said:

I would love, Love, LOVE a free trial system of some sort.

I agree, and it would force devs to up the quality of their products. The amount of products I've bought only to find out they weren't as expected, buggy or I've used only once would mean I would be making a lot of use of this feature, and probably saving a lot of money.

2 hours ago, tonywob said:

would mean I would probably be saving a lot of money.

which they won't be making anymore. a downward spiral.

" it would force devs to up the quality of their products." or get out of business.

for example: I doubt we will see major improvements in graphics quality from a developer like Thranda, trial version or not.

free trials would mean the proverbial "final nail in the coffin" for many low quality developers.

"I would love a free trial system of some sort. Eagle Dynamics (DCS World) instituted a similar system awhile ago and it seems to be going strong."

so does Steam for many products in their store. or Amazon's return policy even after 30 days. 😃

To maintain a store requires at least additional headcount of 2 plus server infrastructure,  ca. $ 100.000/year in total.

assume 1.000 products/month @ $ 8,- profit per sale (25% share of a $ 32,- product) to break even. 

it's never too late to learn from your competitors success stories, but what took them over 3 years?

the best selling product in the new x-plane store? MSFS 2024 🤣

Edited February 4, 20242 yr by turbomax

7 hours ago, Matchstick said:

Wonder how it will handle updating - whether devs will continue to do it outside the sim with Skunkcrafts or whether it will be reliant on LR/

it doesnt impact anything "outside the sim".

In sim store will handle everything from auto/manual updates through to Austin approving/rejecting submissions, hiring for the task if/as needed.

not explicitly stated but I imagine XP store listings will also attract a higher priority for sim bugs that impact their aircraft. I got some 1 on 1 time with Philipp this afternoon and we hopefully signed off the last of my big 744 bugs.

7 hours ago, tonywob said:

Yep... the DRM part is interesting as well, hopefully this will include a way to protect scenery from piracy as well.

Hopefully more details soon, but some things I'm hoping for:

1. Freeware as well as payware
2. Dependencies (e.g. Download libraries etc)
3. Rating system

 

 

1. probably not. 

2. they will build the install and wrap it up in the final drm. goal is 100% to make it as painless for users and safe for developers as they can.

3. yes, reviews were very actively discussed.

scenery; yes no kinda, the basic conclusion is there is not much that can be done to protect high value textures, but they can validate installs and ensure products were paid for, including scenery. There is also big changes coming to the scenery system, but its still a way off being ready.

8 hours ago, GoranM said:

This is quite significant.

It also proves the 3rd party environment in X-Plane is very much alive and well.

the whole weekend was a massive, hugely positive milestone for xplane, users and developers. 

how significant?

I finished the day with a photo together with Cameron. 

I think that perfectly symbolises how much things are going in the right direction.

Time to board the plane home.

1 hour ago, mSparks said:

There is also big changes coming to the scenery system, but its still a way off being ready.

Can you elaborate?

@mSparks was this event publicized  to developers out of slack and discord? Just curious if non XP platform developers knew about this. Maybe this was really meant for the a niche audience who already makes plugin for XP.?

Hmm I wonder where Austin got this idea from?! But that's okay, other sim stole the Scenery Gateway 😅 

1-1 game on simmers.

31 minutes ago, Greazer said:

where Austin got this idea from

In-app DLC purchases? There's quite a few examples out there. Isn't that how it works in XP mobile?

 

31 minutes ago, Greazer said:

other sim stole the Scenery Gateway

Yep, this is pretty shameless. And surprising given 500+ employees on payroll.

 

33 minutes ago, Greazer said:

1-1 game on simmers

If comparing apples to oranges is your thing..then yeah, sure.

10 hours ago, UrgentSiesta said:

you were rather dismissive when I recommended this many months ago

Not that I was being dismissive.  In my own personal opinion, it would be very difficult to administrate.  Is there a screening process?  Who screens the add ons?  What's the criteria to have an add on listed in the store?  How secure is the DRM?  Who decides the price?  Is there a merchant site?  How do we get paid?  For international developers, what site does LR go through to pay us.  IIRC, Paypal charges something like 20% on bank transfers.  

These are just "off the top of my head" questions that I would personally be asking as a 3rd party content creator.  I could come up with many more.  

I'm not trying to discourage other developers from taking advantage of the LR store.  More power to them.  If Laminar can manage it successfully and smoothly and maintain a good relationship with the developers, it could very easily be a viable choice for 3rd party developers AND for Laminar.  

I've seen the "support" side of add on creation, and it can get very stressful, particularly when the questions that come in are along the lines of "How do I start the engine??" or "This add on is too realistic.  I want something I can get in and fly with little to no fuss!  Please give me a refund!"

Yes, these are questions I have gotten.  I've been threatened with chargebacks for add ons that were bought, downloaded, installed, used for 2 or 3 years, then the customer wants a refund.  

A central marketplace will get those kinds of questions...multiplied by x.

 

But as I always say, we'll see how they go.  Happy to be proven wrong.  For all I know, they could hire a dedicated team to deal with the stressful side of running a store.  

11 hours ago, UrgentSiesta said:

I'm already seeing a lot of hate for the xp.org store re this news. FWIW, I've purchased MANY of my addons thru them over the years and never once had a problem.

It's public, so I'll mention it.  My last purchase at the org store was 2010.  It wasn't activating, so I asked for help in the forums.  This was 2 weeks before Christmas.  I had no response for 10 days, so I posted again a few days before Christmas.  On a public forum, I was called a troublemaker by the admin because I was asking for support 2 days before Christmas.

The developer DID reply to my post and offered to help me out.  I thanked him for the offer, but I respectfully declined due to the way I was treated by the admin.  He apologized for the way I was treated. 

11 hours ago, UrgentSiesta said:

I sure hope so! I've seen a pretty steady trickle of addons being released (and v12 upgrades). And more than a few are on my To Buy list. Especially the "mythical" TBM 

Soon ™ 

😉

2 hours ago, Sims Smith said:

was this event publicized  to developers out of slack and discord?

Yes.  Several months ago.  The invitation was only extended to developers in the Laminar Slack group.

 

 

6 hours ago, strider1 said:

Can you elaborate?

yes, but another thread at a later date

6 hours ago, Sims Smith said:

@mSparks was this event publicized  to developers out of slack and discord? Just curious if non XP platform developers knew about this. Maybe this was really meant for the a niche audience who already makes plugin for XP.?

It was specific for XP developers (fselite and fsxpo were there to, so watch out for them) with a lot of love and help from ToLiss.

similar conceptually to the discord dev q&as but in person with good food, jacuzzis, open bar and a lot more words developers use. 

Edited February 5, 20242 yr by mSparks

8 hours ago, Sims Smith said:

@mSparks was this event publicized  to developers out of slack and discord? Just curious if non XP platform developers knew about this. Maybe this was really meant for the a niche audience who already makes plugin for XP.?

It was an invite only seminar event for developers, so yes fairly niche. Most of us are on a developer group on Slack, and I think the invite was sent to everyone on there. Sadly, many of us couldn't get time off work to attend, so hopefully anything relevant/news will be released over time.

I love to purchase from steam because they have the best consumer policy. If it has been less than 14 days and you've played for less than 2 hours, you can get an automatic refund. 

  

10 hours ago, GoranM said:

Yes, these are questions I have gotten.  I've been threatened with chargebacks for add ons that were bought, downloaded, installed, used for 2 or 3 years, then the customer wants a refund.

I would tell them, 'go ahead'. The chargeback window is somewhere in the Region of 120 days for Mastercard and Visa and basically everyone else.

10 hours ago, GoranM said:

In my own personal opinion, it would be very difficult to administrate.  Is there a screening process?  Who screens the add ons?  What's the criteria to have an add on listed in the store?  How secure is the DRM?  Who decides the price?  Is there a merchant site?  How do we get paid?  For international developers, what site does LR go through to pay us.  IIRC, Paypal charges something like 20% on bank transfers.  

I've seen the "support" side of add on creation, and it can get very stressful, particularly when the questions that come in are along the lines of "How do I start the engine??" or "This add on is too realistic.  I want something I can get in and fly with little to no fuss!  Please give me a refund!"

I've been threatened with chargebacks for add ons that were bought, downloaded, installed, used for 2 or 3 years, then the customer wants a refund.  

A central marketplace will get those kinds of questions...multiplied by x.

Overall, I'm positive LR already have the very same problems with selling XP itself. While it's more complicated to deal with 3rd party addons, it's something they're already doing. So why not scale up and turn that unavoidable expense into net additional profit?

Yes, it's more work, but it's also more money. This is why, as I've mentioned, it's critical to do it smart, delegate it, and compartmentalize it. That way, the XP dev team doesn't get wrapped up in addon sales, but LR itself benefits from the profit.

All in all, if it weren't worth it, there wouldn't be all those other companies selling addons as their primary business, nor would MS or ED do it.

Quote

It's public, so I'll mention it.  My last purchase at the org store was 2010.  It wasn't activating, so I asked for help in the forums.  This was 2 weeks before Christmas.  I had no response for 10 days, so I posted again a few days before Christmas.  On a public forum, I was called a troublemaker by the admin because I was asking for support 2 days before Christmas.

The developer DID reply to my post and offered to help me out.  I thanked him for the offer, but I respectfully declined due to the way I was treated by the admin.  He apologized for the way I was treated. 

Sad to hear of your trouble back then. All I can say is that since roughly 2018 I've had not a single problem over many purchases, downloads, activations and re-activations. Never even had a problem redeeming points for a "free" addon. 

Quote

 

Soon ™ 

😉

 

Good things take time.

20 hours ago, GoranM said:

Is there a screening process?  Who screens the add ons?  What's the criteria to have an add on listed in the store?

There is one answer to all these questions, and you possibly shouldn't be surprised by it.

Austin.

Little bit more to it than that, but my take away was they are extending their testing suite they have already and enabling 3PDs to send their addons/aircraft/scenery to run through it.

Austin said there isn't a checklist now, his plan is to build it based on "reasons he sends stuff back as must try harder".

Get accepted, and they will wrap it in the new DRM and identity system they are building up and handle everything from there.

The way they were talking about it, it is heavily based on what has to be done to get listed on steam (which is another complication) with a load of getting listed on google/apple thrown in

Edited February 6, 20242 yr by mSparks

On 2/5/2024 at 12:01 AM, mSparks said:

yes, but another thread at a later date

NDA?