After reading an article in a flying magazine (from the Bavarian aviation association), I searched also the internet for that simulator mentioned there. Here it is: https://flugplatz-genderkingen.de/simulator/ (in German).

Not only that respective aviation club is using X-Plane 12 for their simulator, but according to the article in the magazine, it is almost structurally identical to a simulator at Diamond Aircraft.

Excerpt from the website:

So much for the "pros".

"The simulator (no FNPT approval)"

It's an expensive (and impressive ) toy at least. That we can agree on. As a DA40 pilot I'd probably use it if I was really rusty.

If read it correctly, They used components from a real Diamond simulator. But for hobby use.

Edited October 12, 20232 yr by SAS443

48 minutes ago, SAS443 said:

So much for the "pros".

"The simulator (no FNPT approval)"

It's an expensive (and impressive ) toy at least. That we can agree on. As a DA40 pilot I'd probably use it if I was really rusty.

If read it correctly, They used components from a real Diamond simulator. But for hobby use.

Nothing XP12 is going to get authority approval until XP12 is "final" aiui, otherwise they would be locked in to that version or need to reapply with every XP update, XP12 is just the visual system here, the underlying physics is driven by DAs own software.

This is a work in progress for sure, but "ready" their side while the regulators, Laminar and Diamond get the software perfected.

Edited October 12, 20232 yr by mSparks

Why, why does such a negative opinion have to be shared here? Is it because the simulator used is X-Plane? I think that the simulator can serve as preparation for certain training sessions. With DIAMOND supporting them, I think the simulator will be very close to an FNPT system.

 

16 minutes ago, Dirk.M said:

Why, why does such a negative opinion have to be shared here? Is it because the simulator used is X-Plane? I think that the simulator can serve as preparation for certain training sessions. With DIAMOND supporting them, I think the simulator will be very close to an FNPT system.

 

thread title is incorrect. It's not  endorsed for any kind of professional purposes. It's an expensive replica of what you'd find at diamond training center.

There are heaps of these type of installations where enthusiasts dismantle real training devices and re-use the hardware together with more modern and non-proprietary scenery generator and aircraft data. Like the organization I'm a member of, we have a fully enclosed (non motion) A320 simulator so I'm quite familiar how this concept works (and it's expensive to run, we charge EUR 120/hr)

Lastly I've owned every X-plane version since since v7, so don't try to deflect this as a sim vs sim debate.  😉

2 hours ago, SAS443 said:

It's not  endorsed for any kind of professional purpose

Absolutely false. I dont think you understand what FNPT means.

Pilot training has a significant groundschool component, the schools are the ones who sign off each stage of that NOT the aviation authority, and you have to pass all of it well before you are allowed anywhere near a live cockpit.

You can pretty much use whatever you want for that with little more than authority oversight, including flight training.

FNPT certification means the simulator can be used to log "real world" flight hour requirement that is part of the "in the air" syllabus, that can cut training costs significantly, but it is very far from the only role a simulator set up has in flight training. learning to navigate in the air with nothing more than a hard copy map, a pencil and a watch is bleeping hard, and zero chance of a school endorsing you for a solo cross country flight unless they are 110% sure you can make it back alive. 

Xplane 11, without even the schools endorsement probably saved me €10,000 (including the additional cost of having to relearn a chunk of muscle memory because helicopters in early XP11 versions had some big deficiencies that werent speciified at the time and have been fixed since).

heck, if it wasnt for the experience I logged in MVFR in XP11 I would have failed my PPLH catastrophically, because my test was the first time I flew in MVFR for real.

2 hours ago, SAS443 said:

where enthusiasts dismantle real training devices

yeah, Diamond are simply aircraft enthusiasts, they dont know the first thing about the DA40 or DA42 really..

Good grief. 

meanwhile, in the real world

https://www.easa.europa.eu/en/downloads/22636/en

Edited October 12, 20232 yr by mSparks

7 hours ago, mSparks said:

Nothing XP12 is going to get authority approval until XP12 is "final" aiui, otherwise they would be locked in to that version or need to reapply with every XP update, XP12 is just the visual system here, the underlying physics is driven by DAs own software.

This is a work in progress for sure, but "ready" their side while the regulators, Laminar and Diamond get the software perfected.

What's "final"?

I understand it might have to get re-certified (IDK about these things)...?

 

4 hours ago, mSparks said:

Xplane 11, without even the schools endorsement probably saved me €10,000 (including the additional cost of having to relearn a chunk of muscle memory because helicopters in early XP11 versions had some big deficiencies that werent speciified at the time and have been fixed since).

 

I'm so old these types of debates couldn't even happen back when I learned to fly.

I would've benefitted IMMENSELY from a quality desktop simulator integrated with the training.

  

10 hours ago, mSparks said:

Nothing XP12 is going to get authority approval until XP12 is "final" aiui

 

I also was wondering what you meant by final. Is xplane 12 final when xplane 13 releases? I always thought going gold or final meant the release version that is sold to the public.

2 hours ago, UrgentSiesta said:

I understand it might have to get re-certified (IDK about these things)...?

From one of the interviews I saw, one of the laminar guys mentioned in order to get certification the sim needs to be stutter free. At the moment, this is not the case with xplane 12. So, it won't be until that is fixed at least. I believe they were referring to level D though.

Edited October 13, 20232 yr by brinx

10 hours ago, SAS443 said:

thread title is incorrect.

Absolutely, I thought the thread was going to be all about ladies of the night who had taken an interest inflight simulation.

9 minutes ago, jon b said:

Absolutely, I thought the thread was going to be all about ladies of the night who had taken an interest inflight simulation.

Wait till they find out about AirHauler and the well paid missions it offers.

3 hours ago, brinx said:

I also was wondering what you meant by final. Is xplane 12 final when xplane 13 releases? I always thought going gold or final meant the release version that is sold to the public.

XP12 equivalent of XP11.55, eta roughly 4 years. prior to XP11.55 certified sims used XP10.

commercial/pro use is different than "public use", while "the public" tos and fros about how "xplanes flight model feels", aviation authorities have very very specific demands for what they will credit as "having flown the real aircraft but in a simulator".

also varies by aviation authority, e.g.

https://www.easa.europa.eu/en/downloads/46529/en

or

https://tc.canada.ca/en/aviation/publications/aeroplane-rotorcraft-simulator-manual-tp-9685

right now, the sim for that is XP11.55. Once a setup has demonstrated to an aviation authority it meets all their requirements for performance and procedures, everything is "locked down" to the specific parts of that simulator, and any changes will require going through the whole (expensive) process again.

Pro use is business oriented - that road only makes sense when the cost of certification can be recovered selling time on the simulator.

Its also why "level D sims" have "bad graphics". cost of certification for a decent ATPL trainer configuration will run into millions, a desire to upgrade its GPU from a Geforce 3 to an RTX4090 isn't enough to justify spending that money again.

OTOH, what a school wants, is for students to log as much time as possible with an instructor (pro use for x-plane), a decent chunk of real world flying doesn't contribute that much to actual learning (joke I often use, is it takes half an hour and costs several thousand $$$'s just to start the engines of a AW109), and a simulator doesn't need to be certified for that to reduce the schools overheads and subsequently the cost of training significantly. I'm sure the expectation is that it will be certified eventually, but right now all the commercial use sims using XP12 are in the development phase.

 

18 hours ago, mSparks said:

Nothing XP12 is going to get authority approval until XP12 is "final" aiui

 

6 hours ago, mSparks said:

XP12 equivalent of XP11.55, eta roughly 4 years. prior to XP11.55 certified sims used XP10.

My question was about your definition of final. I was asking if xplane 12 could only be considered final when xplane 13 comes out. Is that what you meant? Going gold and then being released to the public is what I know as final. Going gold/final does not mean you can't update the software afterwards.

From what I hear, one of the biggest factors to any sim receiving certification is whether or not the sim runs smoothly without stutters. Imagine a pilot training on a piece of multimillion-dollar machine and it is stuttering. Plus isn't certification a combination of software/hardware anyway.

4 hours ago, brinx said:

 

My question was about your definition of final. I was asking if xplane 12 could only be considered final when xplane 13 comes out. Is that what you meant? Going gold and then being released to the public is what I know as final. Going gold/final does not mean you can't update the software afterwards.

From what I hear, one of the biggest factors to any sim receiving certification is whether or not the sim runs smoothly without stutters. Imagine a pilot training on a piece of multimillion-dollar machine and it is stuttering. Plus isn't certification a combination of software/hardware anyway.

to make it more consistent, "final" here just means not being updated anymore.

atm we are in "final" for minor versions, there isn't going to be an XP12.0.7 release 2, 12.0.7r1 is the "final" 12.0.7, next is 12.0.8.

each minor version looks at one specific aspect, e.g. for pro use, 12.0.8 has developer time assigned to Projector Warping/Blending (very relevant for the above simulator), so if you are running projector warping and blending, the 12.0.8 betas are the time to make sure all your bugs are fixed before it goes "final" and their developers move on to other things.

getting certified for logging real world hours doesn't make sense until the "major" version is final, because there will be bugs and issues fixed in the very near future that you don't want to have to live with for the next 10 years.

5 hours ago, brinx said:

one of the biggest factors to any sim receiving certification is whether or not the sim runs smoothly without stutters.

Certification also isn't an "all or nothing" thing (aiui), what you get certified for is individual syllabus items that you can credit time to

taking EASA (FAA is similar aiui)

https://www.easa.europa.eu/sites/default/files/dfu/Part-FCL.pdf

each of the parts of FCL.210.A will be certified individually, so you might easily get

FCL.210.A b 1 i pre-flight operations, including mass and balance determination, aircraft inspection and servicing;

but not

FCL.210.A b 1 ii aerodrome and traffic pattern operations, collision avoidance precautions and procedures;

They get logged in your log book and signed off by the instructor,

Looking at my log book

I got endorsed for 11A Hovering

https://www.easa.europa.eu/en/downloads/120868/en

in April 2018 on a 1 hour flight in YUHFK.

____

That's a bit of a brain dump, "not an instructor" and never logged any credited hours in a sim to say for sure, may also vary wildy by CAA.

 

 

 

On 10/13/2023 at 12:26 AM, mSparks said:

and you have to pass all of it well before you are allowed anywhere near a live cockpit.

I allowed myself near and into a live cockpit. I jumped right into the cockpit on day one and had my first hour of flight training before passing any simulator/ground school/theory class. passed my written only after practical training was finished. was my own airplane, single engine, fixed gear though. 🤣 

Edited October 15, 20232 yr by turbomax

4 hours ago, turbomax said:

I allowed myself near and into a live cockpit. I jumped right into the cockpit on day one and had my first hour of flight training before passing any simulator/ground school/theory class. passed my written only after practical training was finished. was my own airplane, single engine, fixed gear though. 🤣 

there are of course always caveats.

single or no engine, steam guages, only room for a couple of people, less than 5700kg etc don't have the same restrictions. 

Edited October 15, 20232 yr by mSparks