Before I begin, I just want to make clear that this isn’t another thread about METAR vs. MeteoBlue weather model data, or closed vs. open weather API. Instead this relates to at least one apparent bug, identified by the community on the MSFS forums, which might be responsible for some of the terrible live weather depiction we’ve had since SU5.

There are a few topics on the forums relating to the degradation of weather depiction in the sim after SU5 and the Xbox rollout. This issue is one of the most disappointing aspects of the sim for me, because the screenshots and videos I have from the early days of live weather in MSFS are spectacular compared to what we have now (see the end of this post for examples).

The two biggest issues are:

• All clouds being rendered as cumulus in live weather
• Cloud Density is now always zero — these days clouds are mostly transparent.

A user on the forums, who contributed to this thread (see also the comparison of pre-SU5 weather vs. post-SU5 weather) has made a really good video showing a bug where cloud density can no longer be applied to individual cloud layers. If you change the density of an upper cloud layer, it also affects the density of the lower ones.

You can see the video here:

There seems to be some kind of a fudge to render visibility as well, which forces the density value to always have to be at or near zero. This doesn’t seem to be for performance reasons, but rather as a workaround for visibility issues.

Increasing cloud density doesn’t just help make clouds look more real, or give you a greater sense of speed when passing through them (see the below video for that example — complete with trippy video artefacting on camera changes), but it also lets the lighting engine cast shadows on cloud levels and on the ground far more realistically. These are all things that MS/Asobo themselves sold to us as great features in their feature discovery series videos.

 

If you’ve made it this far, I’d really appreciate it if you could vote on these MSFS forum bugs to try and get Asobo to pay attention to the issue. Here are a couple of them:

• https://forums.flightsimulator.com/t/live-weather-clouds-density-opacity-always-zero/544158
• https://forums.flightsimulator.com/t/cloud-layer-densities-are-not-fully-independently-controllable-by-layer/600715

 

*****

 

MSFS launched with far superior (visual) live weather compared to what we have now. Id’ argue that they owe it to us to fix at least some of these bugs in MSFS2020 and restore what was lost, rather than forcing us to wait until (and pay for) MSFS2024 — assuming these bugs are even on their radar for that release.

Below are a couple of Live Weather shots in MSFS from 2020/early 2021 before SU5 just to show you what we lost:

Live weather extending to (and beyond) the horizon — the original 600km that was advertised. Thin cumulus/stratocumulus cloud layers and their original ozone visibility setting (if I recall correctly) causing the yellow hue in the distance. Thicker clouds lead to better shadowing on lower cloud layers. I still remember this flight as I was flying VFR, with the clouds closing in on me from above and below.

 

Same flight as above — but really highlights the cloud density leading to excellent sun/shadowing on the ground.

 

Not my photo — this one's courtesy of someone on the forum thread linked above. But shows realistic looking thin altostratus-type clouds.

Another great example of cloud density. The upper and lower clouds here are thick enough to cast shadows on each other, leading to a darker lower layer not in the sunshine.

Distant low-level clouds, realistically rendered from afar. Also, check out the visibility that we had originally. These are all live weather shots, and to me, at least, they all look entirely realistic and added so much to the experience of flight.

 

We don't know anything about MSFS2024 Live weather yet - except we'll get tornadoes. I'd rather have this:

I rather see them throw what is not working in the bin. 
Build a new framework that better supports functionality that they did not see the need for when they made 2020. They have learnt a lot in regards to what the users are looking for. 

Are these things weather bugs or are they cloud depiction shortcomings? The weather itself has improved dramatically over the life of 2020, but things like the cloud appearance, turbulence, etc., have not. In any case, none of us knows what various performance compromises need to be made so that the sim can run on a broad range of devices including the Xbox. 

Good luck. Maybe one day.

Nice post - the clouds themselves in live weather certainly have been downgraded in favor of performance.  I see tons of very transparent clouds which totally wrecks the "immersion.". Or may favorite, live weather calls for 500 ft ceiling yet I can see through the layer about 3-4 miles out....  

Any of you remember tech alpha clouds?  Those were the best.

 

If possible, they need to get rid of all the transparent clouds. There's way too many of them! I'll load a flight up at night and see stars everywhere thinking the sky is clear, only switch to daytime and realize there's a bunch of clouds around. It's just that they're so transparent that you can't see them at night!

Another thing they need to work on is rain at close proximity. the only way to see raindrops (not distant rain curtains) is if they are directly lit by artificial light. This was an attempt to fix the exaggerated appearance of rain that is common in other sims and games but it was definitely an over correction. I see raindrops just fine during the day and even in overcast conditions. 

Wow, I guess I just got used to it over time but this is indeed appalling...

I just really hope they get rid of the cauliflower/volcanic ash clouds. Really ruins the look of the sim.

I don't think this has anything to do with performance optimization. You can go into the weather presets and get things looking closer to where they should be and barely lose any frames. From launch, and even back in the alpha days, clouds have never had a big impact on performance. An amazing feat considering what used to happen with FSX's 2D clouds. This is clearly an issue with how the live weather algorithm draws the depiction. 

Edited August 18, 20232 yr by Krakin

9 minutes ago, Krakin said:

 

I don't this this has anything to do with performance optimization. You can go into the weather presets and get things looking closer to where they should be and barely lose any frames.

 

Exactly. I was about to respond to say the same thing. It’s a bit tricky to manage the weather presets menu and end up with realistic looking clouds, but Floyd’s Epic Clouds or the RandomVMC presets seem to have done a pretty good job showing how realistic the weather can still look.
 

I imagine though that loading different weather in different locations (for live weather) probably has a (slightly?) larger impact on performance. But still - if we’re able to get 40+ fps with averaging hardware (and in many cases much more AFP’s than that) then I don’t think it should be a reason not to reinstate clouds as they once were.

I think if the density bug (if that’s what it actually is) alone was fixed, then we would already have a much improved live weather experience.

I recall a while back (maybe 1-2 years) Joerg hinted that big things were coming to the simulator in terms of weather (I think he referred to it as something like atmosphere 2.0?). But they haven’t talked about anything like that in a very long time. 

Edited August 18, 20232 yr by Redge

38 minutes ago, Redge said:

I recall a while back (maybe 1-2 years) Joerg hinted that big things were coming to the simulator in terms of weather (I think he referred to it as something like atmosphere 2.0?). But they haven’t talked about anything like that in a very long time. 

In Sept. '21 (Q&A from Sept. 29) he said: Weather for us is a Big Deal. It is something we are heavily, heavily investing in. I think with Meteoblue we have a great partner. Late this year you will get this first Update (remark: SU7), we’re planning on another which will be really awesome when it happens. It will probably be in 2022, it could be as late as 2023. Weather is one of those things. It’s where planes live, it’s got to be awesome. We will get it as good as you can get it. That is really the goal.

Back in Nov. 2022 he announced talks with Meteoblue about data resolution (snow coverage!), WXradar API and “future features” and promised to inform about the outcome in early 2023 - never happened.
Instead the last Q&A delivered some vague statements hinting at opening the weather API for third parties, which was sacrosanct from the beginning. Then the announcement of MSFS 2024.

Can you see why I don't trust in these PR statements anymore?

Edited August 18, 20232 yr by Tom_L

Thanks for the references! I was being too lazy to look them all up. I do recall another reference before this as well though — when Joerg talked a lot of the various "strike teams" they had working on things. One was very much related to overhauling how the atmosphere looked.

But anyway, I take your point. I generally have faith in the work that the MS/Asobo team are doing — they've delivered an incredible platform. It's just that the wow factor I experienced when first using MSFS was based partly on the incredible world, but mostly on the realisation that the plausible atmosphere added a whole new dimension to flightsimming that I'd never thought about before - the dynamic skyscape was an entirely new world to me (I'd sometimes put off a flight if the weather wasn't going to be good that day, because I couldn't face using the weather presets instead). I would love to get that back.

 

We always got told 'MSFS is a sim for simmers'.

And they keep on telling us that. I guess so many times, until we believe it. But the fact is flying is 50% weather, at least.

And they never got it right. Clouds depiction is dismal.

There are at least 16 main define cloud types in the real with a bunch of sub-categories.

 We got maybe three types, all a variant of cumulus. 

Here is a list of just high level cloud types that do exist:

Type 1

Veils, very tenuous stratiform; resembles cirrostratus or poorly defined cirrus.

Type 2

Long stratocumuliform bands, often in parallel groups or interwoven at small angles. More widely spaced than cirrocumulus bands.

Bands with diffuse, blurred edges.

Bands with sharply defined edges.

Type 3

Billows. Clearly spaced, fibrous cirriform, roughly parallel short streaks.

Short, straight, narrow streaks.

Wave-like structures with undulations.

Type 4

Whirls. Partial (or, more rarely, complete) cirriform rings with dark centers.

Whirls possessing a small angular radius of curvature, sometimes resembling light ripples on a water surface.

Simple curve of medium angular radius with one or more streaks.

Whirls with large-scale ring structures.

 

For all other cloud type and pictures visit https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cloud_types

 

I believe there is a real leadership problem at MSFS. I get scolded for saying this, but the current cloud depiction is just a very lazy type of implementation 'Lets just put some fluffy white stuff up in the sky, the simmers won't notice..'  We do notice and I am complaining since 2020.

 

Thanks for bringing this up again!

 

15 minutes ago, Redge said:

when Joerg talked a lot of the various "strike teams" they had working on things.

Yeah, another one I am disillusioned about over time: in the beginning it was said that "200" people were working on the sim, the latest PR (it was the last Q&A) spat out the number of "500".

The reality seems to be that Working Title is doing the Avionics and Aircraft job, Gaya and Orbx are doing airports and POIs for the WU's, Bing and other third parties (TIN) are collecting the data for WU's and City Updates. SU13 Beta shows that there's basically no major core sim enhancements, so that people over at the official forums have dubbed it "AAU2.5". I think we would be flabbergasted should we find out how many people are actually working on the core sim at ASOBO. And they are probably heavily invested in MSFS 2024 already. Let's hope the result is convincing.

Edited August 18, 20232 yr by Tom_L

19 minutes ago, Redge said:

I recall a while back (maybe 1-2 years) Joerg hinted that big things were coming to the simulator in terms of weather (I think he referred to it as something like atmosphere 2.0?). But they haven’t talked about anything like that in a very long time. 

I'm pretty sure that was intended to be part of 2020 but it is now being implemented in 2024. For one thing, we do know that the tornado we saw in the teaser trailer was formed based on accurate weather conditions and was not canned. This was confirmed by the head of games studios at MS and presented as one of the reasons why they felt they needed to make a new sim. I think there are other big improvements yet to be revealed by them.