4 hours ago, threegreen said:

Leave the guy alone. You don't have to like or agree with him, but maybe stop personally attacking the man yet again, who isn't even here to defend himself, based on his voice, the number of videos he uploads, because he's a volunteer tech advisor for PMDG, because you have a different opinion than him on a flight sim plane while conveniently ignoring every time he praised the plane, and even insisting on denouncing his skills as a professional pilot based on ridiculous reasons like he didn't open the flight controls synoptic page when doing a flight control check on his home PC sim, which, incidentally, is a feature the operator he used to fly for doesn't even have (neither do 9 out of 10 737 operators in general). This community can be so obnoxious.

I'm afraid you have jumped the gun again.

 

This is troubling to see that we can't disagree courteously and call people having ridiculous reasons or saying that the community is obnoxious. 

 

To clarify, he is the one that got involved in having an evaluation regarding a PC flight sim plane and some discrepancies were noted. Nothing else, nothing personal as you try to imply.

 

After conducting some research on my old manuals, I have discovered that the SYS page does not offer any customer option for flight control indications. If the airplane system shows signs of malfunction, there are specific instructions in place to release it under a MEL cat C item. Your statement that "neither do 9 out of 10 737 operators in general" regarding this matter is questionable.

Perhaps you can comprehend why we may have a difference of opinion simply by examining this:

 

1 hour ago, LRBS said:

If the airplane system shows signs of malfunction, there are specific instructions in place to release it under a MEL cat C item

If an aircraft has a particular system installed, there will will be an MEL procedure to be followed in case it malfunctions. If the system does not exist, there will be no MEL procedure and no mention of the system in the FCOM. 

As I’m sure you know, if a system is installed and there is no mention of it in the MEL, it cannot be deferred, but must be repaired before further flight. A COM or NAV radio can be deferred if there is more than one. An Air Data Computer cannot be deferred. Both must be operational to dispatch.

My employer operates three Dassult Falcon 900s. Two of them are equipped with a HUD, one is not. We do not use the generic FAA MMEL, but a tailored MEL for each specific aircraft. The aircraft without a HUD has no mention of a HUD in the MEL. The two equipped with HUD do have an MEL entry in section 34-31-01. For those that do have it, it is a category D, and basically does not “ever” have to work.

As I mentioned, a friend and former coworker is a captain with Southwest. We keep in touch.  He is rated on all models SWA operates, including the Max. He is also an A&P and experimental aircraft builder, and I worked with him on projects over the years when he was local.

We discussed this very thing quite some time ago. According to him, on the NG, the control position indicator, brake temperature monitoring system and tire pressure monitoring system are all customer options. Some SWA aircraft have all three options, some one or two, some have none. They are the world’s largest 737 operator. Some of their aircraft have been in their fleet since new, some were acquired from other operators. 

As an example, those aircraft that have the BTMS can use the brake temperature indications to determine whether the brakes are cool enough to safely takeoff after a previous landing on a hot day. For those without BTMS, they have to use tables to determine holdover time, based on OAT, landing weight, and amount of of braking applied on the previous landing. 

For an aircraft with control surface position monitoring, they will use it to do a control check as part of the pre-taxi flow, and I assume that if it does not work, they would have to MEL it, and follow the (M) procedure.

For those that do not have it, the pre-taxi control check consists only of a test of “full and free movement in all axes”.

Edited July 25, 20232 yr by JRBarrett

3 hours ago, carlanthony24 said:

Comment from Emi are you type rated on the 737. Why would you even ask unless you have a big ego.

I would probably answer the same way honestly. Nowadays everyone think they are an expert even if they've never stepped into the cockpit of an airliner.

In terms of this review, he didn't say anything controversial. He gave his assessment based on his experience with the real aircraft.

Edited July 25, 20232 yr by brinx

16 minutes ago, JRBarrett said:

If an aircraft has a particular system installed, there will will be an MEL procedure to be followed in case it malfunctions. If the system does not exist, there will be no MEL procedure and no mention of the system in the FCOM. 

As I’m sure you know, if a system is installed and there is no mention of it in the MEL, it cannot be deferred, but must be repaired before further flight. A COM or NAV radio can be deferred if there is more than one. An Air Data Computer cannot be deferred. Both must be operational to dispatch.

My employer operates three Dassult Falcon 900s. Two of them are equipped with a HUD, one is not. We do not use the generic FAA MMEL, but a tailored MEL for each specific aircraft. The aircraft without a HUD has no mention of a HUD in the MEL. The two equipped with HUD do have an MEL entry in section 34-31-01. For those that do have it, it is a category D, and basically does not “ever” have to work.

As I mentioned, a friend and former coworker is a captain with Southwest. We keep in touch.  He is rated on all models SWA operates, including the Max. He is also an A&P and experimental aircraft builder, and I worked with him on projects over the years when he was local.

We discussed this very thing quite some time ago. According to him, on the NG, the control position indicator, brake temperature monitoring system and tire pressure monitoring system are all customer options. Some SWA aircraft have all three options, some one or two, some have none. They are the world’s largest 737 operator. Some of their aircraft have been in their fleet since new, some were acquired from other operators. 

As an example, those aircraft that have the BTMS can use the brake temperature indications to determine whether the brakes are cool enough to safely takeoff after a previous landing on a hot day. For those without BTMS, they have to use tables to determine holdover time, based on OAT, landing weight, and amount of of braking applied on the previous landing. 

For an aircraft with control surface position monitoring, they will use it to do a control check as part of the pre-taxi flow, and I assume that if it does not work, they would have to MEL it, and follow the (M) procedure.

For those that do not have it, the pre-taxi control check consists only of a test of “full and free movement in all axes”.

Jim, I know nothing about the airline you mentioned, and I take your word for it. I'm not on the 737, but the company has 89 738, and all of them have that info on the lower screen. That's why I said, "questionable." 

24 minutes ago, LRBS said:

Jim, I know nothing about the airline you mentioned, and I take your word for it. I'm not on the 737, but the company has 89 738, and all of them have that info on the lower screen. That's why I said, "questionable." 

Southwest is the world’s largest operator of the 737, with 448 -700, 208 -800 and 217 MAX 8. (per Wikipedia) The NG version was in continuous production from 1996 to 2019 with over 7,000 produced. I’m sure there is quite a variety of option packages / combinations in the  current worldwide fleet.

14 hours ago, JRBarrett said:

I’m sure there is quite a variety of option packages / combinations in the  current worldwide fleet.

Yes, there is and it's nigh impossible to find out what is installed unless one has access to an airline's maintenance records.

I run Zibo's 737 in two flavors of Air Berlin (RIP). One in its early 2000s config and another toward the end of its career. Different standby gauges, different autopilot models could be deducted from photos, but there is zero information about the FMS software version, extra autopilot functions, placards, etc. so I had to take a real wild guess at those. And AB was just a small airline. Huge carriers have a hodgepodge of different configurations, especially when they acquired airframes from other airlines.

Edited July 25, 20232 yr by Bjoern

18 hours ago, LRBS said:

I'm afraid you have jumped the gun again.

 

This is troubling to see that we can't disagree courteously and call people having ridiculous reasons or saying that the community is obnoxious. 

 

To clarify, he is the one that got involved in having an evaluation regarding a PC flight sim plane and some discrepancies were noted. Nothing else, nothing personal as you try to imply.

 

After conducting some research on my old manuals, I have discovered that the SYS page does not offer any customer option for flight control indications. If the airplane system shows signs of malfunction, there are specific instructions in place to release it under a MEL cat C item. Your statement that "neither do 9 out of 10 737 operators in general" regarding this matter is questionable.

Perhaps you can comprehend why we may have a difference of opinion simply by examining this:

 

With all due respect, stop the constant virtue signaling please and the downplaying as if nothing happened. You've openly denounced another pilot's professional skill in his absence based on a YT fight sim stream for no reason; that's uncalled for and pretty low, and the best thing you could come up with as an example is something as petty as he didn't open a synoptics page on his home flight sim. You're also being disingenuous by painting his video as hour long unfair criticism while ignoring him praising the plane plenty of times and overall being fair. There's also people attacking him for his voice and his character or the way he runs his channel and the usual "conspiracy" theories because he volunteers for PMDG. The point of "courteously disagreeing" has long been passed since the first page and this isn't the first time people are attacking him on these forums when they could just as well ignore him if they don't like him. That's what's obnoxious.

Anyway, the flight control system indicator is a Boeing customer option and the majority of 737NGs don't have it as it's an extra expense that most airlines avoid since it's not even really serving that much of a purpose since the 737 isn't FBW and a physical check is enough to verify controls are working properly. Ryanair, the airline he used to fly for, doesn't have this, the source for which are Ryanair pilots. I'm also in possession of a leading 737 operator's flight manual for the type which mentions the FCS option not being available on their fleet. PMDG's introduction manuals, at least those for the P3D version I believe, mention this as an option as well as do a few sources you can find on the web. Perhaps it's not 9 out 10 but most don't have it.

2 hours ago, threegreen said:

 

With all due respect, stop the constant virtue signaling please and the downplaying as if nothing happened. You've openly denounced another pilot's professional skill in his absence based on a YT fight sim stream for no reason; that's uncalled for and pretty low, and the best thing you could come up with as an example is something as petty as he didn't open a synoptics page on his home flight sim. You're also being disingenuous by painting his video as hour long unfair criticism while ignoring him praising the plane plenty of times and overall being fair. There's also people attacking him for his voice and his character or the way he runs his channel and the usual "conspiracy" theories because he volunteers for PMDG. The point of "courteously disagreeing" has long been passed since the first page and this isn't the first time people are attacking him on these forums when they could just as well ignore him if they don't like him. That's what's obnoxious.

 

With all due respect if you don't like what people say just scroll on by it is a forum to voice opinions etc. So nothing will change.

He does praise but that's only a minority of things. What is uncalled for is calling developers out constantly and keep bringing these same products up saying its word not allowed, it’s this and that. He is free to run the channel what he likes you are absolutely right. Defamation is also a thing and it would only be a matter of time if a developer/s really want to go down that route. If people are complaining and attacking then take the hint and work something out and not keep destroying a community like flight sim. Let’s be real though you would never hear PMDG is word not allowed because it would be breaking some rules they outlaw. I think you seem to be missing an important point. Respect which in quite a few videos since bashing FSS, even TFDI and some other devs. Is really not helping.  

Put it this way it’s really becoming a talking point on streams etc.

Edited July 25, 20232 yr by carlanthony24

2 hours ago, threegreen said:

 

With all due respect, stop the constant virtue signaling please and the downplaying as if nothing happened. You've openly denounced another pilot's professional skill in his absence based on a YT fight sim stream for no reason; that's uncalled for and pretty low, and the best thing you could come up with as an example is something as petty as he didn't open a synoptics page on his home flight sim. You're also being disingenuous by painting his video as hour long unfair criticism while ignoring him praising the plane plenty of times and overall being fair. There's also people attacking him for his voice and his character or the way he runs his channel and the usual "conspiracy" theories because he volunteers for PMDG. The point of "courteously disagreeing" has long been passed since the first page and this isn't the first time people are attacking him on these forums when they could just as well ignore him if they don't like him. That's what's obnoxious.

Anyway, the flight control system indicator is a Boeing customer option and the majority of 737NGs don't have it as it's an extra expense that most airlines avoid since it's not even really serving that much of a purpose since the 737 isn't FBW and a physical check is enough to verify controls are working properly. Ryanair, the airline he used to fly for, doesn't have this, the source for which are Ryanair pilots. I'm also in possession of a leading 737 operator's flight manual for the type which mentions the FCS option not being available on their fleet. PMDG's introduction manuals, at least those for the P3D version I believe, mention this as an option as well as do a few sources you can find on the web. Perhaps it's not 9 out 10 but most don't have it.

 

 I said that he was not on top of things on a few occasions. Not to be construed as denouncing other pilots' skills.  Also, as a pilot, I do mistakes like every one of us, no news there. When we think that we don't, that's the time to get out of the cockpit. That's my opinion and the impression I got based on what is shown on some YT videos.

I want to point out and hope that you realize when anybody goes into WWW as a business, advertising, YT, etc., and interacts with the whole world, You will experience both the positive and negative aspects of it. You are knowingly open to any criticism, comments, or positive outcomes. It's not only honey; we express our opinions. If somebody can't understand that, I'm afraid it will be a big disappointment as it is for you. And as you already have a recipe for people expressing their opinions to ignore him, maybe is also time for you to ignore these posts as well.  

 

To conclude this, yes, I was educated and realized that I was wrong in my assumptions about flight controls systems check, unfortunately not the first or the last time, and I apologize for my wrong assumptions. My company did not skip that option on their 738.