>They're lax about a lot of things. Clearing people to takeoff>while they're still a good taxi away from their runway, with>other runways to cross, is just one of those lax, hurry-up,>things they do that reduces margins of safety and increases>the onus on YOU. If you're so unwilling to call traffic in>sight, why would you be so willing to accept such a takeoff>clearance that increases your risks? Think this through.i've thought it through. i know which runway i am cleared for to takeoff. i can easily lose the guy in sight or vector myself in. if i get lost i stop and fess up, no big deal.

>>i've thought it through. i know which runway i am cleared for>to takeoff. i can easily lose the guy in sight or vector>myself in. if i get lost i stop and fess up, no big deal.So did they....Before you decide to vector yourself in next time, read this first...http://www.eurocontrol.int/msa/gallery/con...1_21Apr2005.pdfAnd finally, the hard part is not stopping and fessing up when you're lost, the hardest part can be realizing that you are lost....Be careful out there...

>>the real CRJ does show a mini-runway if you zoom in to the 5nm>range. the runway is about 3/4" long. i typically use this>zoomed in for TCAS assistance out of ORD.THIS IS INCORRECT. The CR1/2 avionics do not show a mini runway when departing. FYI. I don't know about the -700, I would assume it to have the same avionics but I'm not sure.

>>>>>the real CRJ does show a mini-runway if you zoom in to the>5nm>>range. the runway is about 3/4" long. i typically use this>>zoomed in for TCAS assistance out of ORD.>>THIS IS INCORRECT. The CR1/2 avionics do not show a mini>runway when departing. FYI. I don't know about the -700, I>would assume it to have the same avionics but I'm not sure.it does show two parallel magenta lines representing the runway. i see this every single time i fly. so it IS CORRECT.as far as situational awareness with this, it is practically worthless. as far as moving maps, etc that would show the ground diagram, i'd happily welcome it. the airlines are TOO CHEAP to put them in until they are mandated, just like TAWS was.

>Before you decide to vector yourself in next time, read this>first...>http://www.eurocontrol.int/msa/gallery/con...1_21Apr2005.pdfyou are not understanding me. when ATC asks if you have someone in sight on an approach they will then say "maintain visual separation cleared for the approach". this is the "passing the responsibility" i was mentioning.in the US above FL180 (i think this is the altitude) you cannot use visual separation to continue a climb, etc.

>>it does show two parallel magenta lines representing the>runway. i see this every single time i fly. so it IS CORRECT.>Not in the 100/200. YOU ARE INCORRECT.The only time it shows the 'runway' is if you load an approach. Do you load an approach on departure? I don't know anyone who does. Selecting the runway in the FMS does not put a runway on the MFD, on the 100/200 series CRJ's.Maybe in your 700 it does.

>>>>>it does show two parallel magenta lines representing the>>runway. i see this every single time i fly. so it IS>CORRECT.>>>>>Not in the 100/200. YOU ARE INCORRECT.>>The only time it shows the 'runway' is if you load an>approach. Do you load an approach on departure? I don't know>anyone who does. Selecting the runway in the FMS does not put>a runway on the MFD, on the 100/200 series CRJ's.>>Maybe in your 700 it does.it is in the 700. i will play with it tomorrow and see, perhaps the opposite is true and it only shows the runway on a departure. as you i assumed the software is the same between the 100/200 and 700. i will report back tomorrow (i have been known to be wrong ask my wife).fyi i always have an approach in departure. we're trained to guesss well.....:)

>As the pilot who has flown out of that airport stated above ->it is common to be given clearance to takeoff while on the>main ramp or on the taxiway, long before the aircraft arrives>at the departure runway - at that airport and many others of>the same size.>That's what I'm saying. I don't quite see how that is a good thing. I feel like that is convienient, but I don't know how safe that is.By coincidence, I was at KLEX less than a month ago. I think it's neat that the horse farms (Calumet Farms) are right across the highway. Anyway being an aviation nut I had to look at the airport. At ground level it's hard to notice the taxiway layout, but I can tell from FS that it would be possible to confuse things at Blue Grass.RhettAMD 3700+ powered by Gerbil wheel + gerbil, eVGA 7800GT 256, ASUS A8N-E, PC Power 510 SLI, 2 gigs Corsair TWINX, blah blah, etc. etc.

Folks,We can armchair this one till the cows come home, but I really feel that we're going to find that probably most if not all procedures were followed by everyone involved.What we all fail to understand is that even when we do everything right we still make the wrong decisions no matter how well we've tried to mitigate the risk.Let's face it, it's probably not that hard to realize or discern between the 2 runways even with 50 different little things like ground markings, any weather, even a wrong intruction by the tower, under most circumstances, most crews still would have figured it out. For what ever reason this time they didn't and I really don't feel there's going to be a rhyme or reason to it. For what ever reason they just happened to take off on the wrong runway. Sometimes we just make stupid mistakes despite what our brains are telling us.As long as we as humans are going to try and interface with machines, the risk will always be there.I know that's about as much as a non answer or explanation as it gets, buts that's probably what happened here, as tragic as it was, this time it cost 49 people there lives. It's not the first time nor will it be the last time, but that's the risk we take depsite our best efforts to try and do otherwise.I think this is one time where the old "chain of events" just may not apply here. We shall see though, what the final analysis is in the end. I hope it does turn out to be something that can be procedurally fixed, but I highly doubt it.

Anyone know how the copilot is doing?

I think the end result of this investigation will reveal a series of poorly made decisions. My experience is poorly made decisions lead to most incidents:* Tower cleared A/C while Taxi* A/C took clearance and continued taxing in dawn via unfamiliar path. Did not question controller* A/C got to Runway, and first clue should have been "no lights". I'm pretty sure only the RIU was lit. So sez reports* A/C crew ignored that first visual (no lights) , and then ignored every other cue possible, including compass, Hdg Bug, Flt Path display, etc* A/C failed to cross check. Not only intstruments, but twy markers, rwy identifiers, etc. They were in a hurry. Why? 6:00am Sunday morning* Perhaps were just cocky. Perhaps have been here many times before? That would be interesting to knowNone of what I say is fact, only conjecture. But I've seen enough of these type reports to expect something like this at the end of the day. And if I'm way off base, I'll gladly eat my words.bt

>* Tower cleared A/C while TaxiI see absolutely no "poor decision" here. This is routinely done hundreds (thousands ?) of times every day when very low traffic warrants it. Michael J.http://www.precisionmanuals.com/images/for...argo_hauler.gifhttp://sales.hifisim.com/pub-download/asv6-banner-beta.jpg

>>* Tower cleared A/C while Taxi>>I see absolutely no "poor decision" here. This is routinely>done hundreds (thousands ?) of times every day when very low>traffic warrants it. >>Michael J.It's a problem if there are runways left to cross. Once the tower clears you to takeoff, as the guy driving the airplane, your mindset makes a slight mental shift from making sure you are only stopping at hold lines or taxiing straight across runways, to now allowing yourself to turn onto a runway when you find one. This is something that's bothered me for a long time. More than once, I've caught myself starting a turn on the tiller onto the incorrect runway because I've been given carte blanche approval already to do something like that. Fortunately, I've always caught it very very quickly. But each time they give me that clearance when I am nowhere near where I'm supposed to be for take off, it does make me pucker up just a little and I have tell myself to be extra careful now. Maybe I'm just stupid. Maybe I'm just the lowest denominator guy out there. I don't know, but I think a clearance like that really does increase the risk of allowing somebody to make a fatal brain fqrt when you consider the human factor aspects of it.And at an airport with a scissor layout like that, the risks of people using the wrong runways are much greater than at any other airprt configuration. To our minds, airports split with a set of left or right runways or X shaped with thresholds that are far apart are easily graspable. But at a V shaped airport with multiple thresholds very close together, but names of runways without a L or R delineator, the realization that you are in a situation of having more than one runway to deal with might not be grasped as quickly since there is no trigger in your mind that there is more than one runway when you get there.To say all this is not to excuse pilot error or stupidity. What Jeff Clay did was line up on a runway without asking in his mind whether this is correct or not. And to do that takes a certain degree of complacency. But there is more that leads up to this than just a quck writeoff to stupid mistake. His real stupid mistake was to blow that last chance at breaking the chain.

I am of the opinion that "clearing while taxi" is a poor practice. I know it is done every day, but I still feel it is wrong.RhettAMD 3700+ powered by Gerbil wheel + gerbil, eVGA 7800GT 256, ASUS A8N-E, PC Power 510 SLI, 2 gigs Corsair TWINX, blah blah, etc. etc.

but if you fly, you're an accident waiting to happen. You are so full of bravado, you cannot hear the words of experience.Do yourself a favor and slow down.bt