On 11/5/2022 at 5:59 PM, BobFS88 said:

That is exactly my point, when people want to look at the numbers from the Steam website  and say "well X plane 12 isn't doing all that well with just 400+ users and are less than X plane 11 compared to the other sim with "no context (sales figures for LR or sales figures from Aerosoft and any other outlet that sales X plane 12) and without consideration of user apathy because it's in beta, there are some would believe what they see and run with it, without caution.

Two can play that game, if LR feel confident to say that they are doing well then I say go for it. 

To be exact…Steam XP12 has yet to hit 300 all-time peak users while XP11 has over 800 avg users / past 30 days.

I am not so much interested in deciphering what LR meant by a successful launch. I witnessed a successful flight sim launch 2 years ago…and I doubt if XP12 hit anywhere near that mark if it was 10 times better than the XP11 launch.

I have many $$$ invested in XP aircraft addons (not yet offered in MSFS) and I would like to experience them in XP12 new “air” environment. But I will have to see how updates improvements go “after” the release of XP12.

If there are many other XP11 users out there looking for the same demonstrated commitment from LR (as we have with MSFS), then the Dec release is just the beginning…LR will have to show commitment to improvements / updates after that point.

At least for me, time is running out for XP…MSFS is releasing Helis next week, and there is a Cirrus Jet in development as well. If I can replace most of my XP fleet in MSFS, then there will be no reason to upgrade to XP12.

56 minutes ago, OverTheEDJ said:

LR will have to show commitment to improvements / updates after that point.

At least for me, time is running out for XP

Let's see...XP was first released in 1995, so nearing 30 years ago. In those decades it has steadily marched forward with releases and updates under the same owner. Many 3rd party devs are offering free or very discounted upgrades to v12.

Conversely, Asobo is the 4th caretaker of Bruce Artwick's original flight sim code. It has gone through streaks and stops and starts. We have no reason to believe that history won't repeat in another few years. Asobo is a video game company. Like Dovetail. Committed? Yes, yes, sure. Right up till M$ execs lose interest again. There's always at least lip service. 

It sounds like you've already made up your mind. I doubt you'll see any beta updates significant enough to change it.

3 minutes ago, blingthinger said:

Let's see...XP was first released in 1995, so nearing 30 years ago. In those decades it has steadily marched forward with releases and updates under the same owner. Many 3rd party devs are offering free or very discounted upgrades to v12.

To me, XP12 does not look like a sim where the developer has been consistently improving for close to 30 years. Austin is just getting around to addressing clouds...in XP12. Slow development...

 

9 minutes ago, blingthinger said:

Asobo is a video game company.

...that happens to make the most popular flight sim to date; and has expanded it to a video game / console platform to reach a broader audience and further secure residual revenues though its online store. All the while offering almost monthly updates (with some updates including free scenery upgrades, airports & aircraft) for over 2 years now.

It seems like the flight sim world was in need of a video game developer...

 

14 minutes ago, blingthinger said:

I doubt you'll see any beta updates significant enough to change it.

I doubt LR will continue to support XP12 consistently beyond the full release; and we will just see the same old stagnate development that we saw with the prior XP releases. As you said below...

18 minutes ago, blingthinger said:

We have no reason to believe that history won't repeat in another few years.

 

7 hours ago, OverTheEDJ said:

I doubt LR will continue to support XP12 consistently beyond the full release; and we will just see the same old stagnate development that we saw with the prior XP releases.

Except that history hasn't proven that out. And certainly XP does take additional work. It's not a sim suitable for the lazy or extremely busy person if eye candy is your need.

Like I pointed out. LR has been at it for decades and has never shown any sign of giving up. I understand your frustration. I know it's hard to put $$$ into a platform that you no longer find visually appealing.

Conversely, M$ will abandon the sim again for a decade or more at some point in the near future. History will repeat. Game studios come and go.

10 hours ago, OverTheEDJ said:

o be exact…Steam XP12 has yet to hit 300 all-time peak users while XP11 has over 800 avg users / past 30 days.

Again you are proving my point that using Steams numbers on its face values give a misleading impression on the interest in Xplane. User of Xplane don't all go the Steam. As matter of fact, when it comes to VR, some people express their wish to not use it at all simply because they don't like the performance with SteamVR and would rather use OpenVR which they are very excited about. That is one of the reason why  the numbers are so low is because they are not using Steam.

But if you want to keeps using those number to measure the success or failure on X Plane, than it is fair to use MSFS against any of the most popular game. It does not look good when measure their numbers up with other AAA games and consider their peak numbers dropping from 61000 to 8000 with an avg use of 8 to 10 thousand. Wouldn't that look misleading to you given that its on the Steam site for gamers and doesn't look that good on face value? Compare to other games I wouldn't think so.  It just gives you the number of user on steam when there using it. I wouldn't look no deeper than that and know that the numbers are much larger when you consider other sources. I don't know why that's impossible for you to understand. 

 

10 hours ago, OverTheEDJ said:

I am not so much interested in deciphering what LR meant by a successful launch.

 

10 hours ago, OverTheEDJ said:

At least for me, time is running out for XP

 

But you are willing to cast doubt without one shred of evidence  and ignoring the history of the success and progress of company that has been around for some 30 years straight while other was keep alive on life support by its third party for 14 years when their corp executive did feel necessary to keep it alive and yet the blind faith continues based on 1 and half video.  

 

 

10 hours ago, OverTheEDJ said:

If there are many other XP11 users out there looking for the same demonstrated commitment from LR (as we have with MSFS), then the Dec release is just the beginning…LR will have to show commitment to improvements / updates after that point.

LR does have to prove anything. they show commitment by staying in the game, MS has not. People who have been following them know this. The fact that LR stayed committed to finishing converting Vulkan (Unlike MS commitment to not finishing Directx 10 for FSX back in 2006) allows them to open the flood gates to improvements we have long been waiting for. But they didn't just do that, they also brought us VR natively when no one else had it. They brought PBR material when no one else had it. The brought use Fmod sounds when no one else had it. The keep making improvements to the flight model. No else was doing that. Where do you think the idea of the attraction of the feel of flight comes from, certainly not from P3D. Those are unattractive underneath the hood improvements, particle systems for accumulated snow or studing improvement for 3D water. These are the things they do, research which is in their LR name. Meanwhile MS decides to jump back into the game showing off a 1 and a half video while the underneath the hood  improvement train is still coming in after 3 years with 7 more to go. You guys like to keep saying 2 years as if the earth is waiting for their next SU release before it continues lol. Time marching on and after New Years it will be headed for 6 in a hurry.  I'm not one of those who like starting over just to wait again. 

 

Edited November 7, 20223 yr by BobFS88

please tell me they are not going to release an A330 with no fmc/fmgs whatsoever.  

24 minutes ago, fluffyflops said:

please tell me they are not going to release an A330 with no fmc/fmgs whatsoever.  

The article seems to indicate that big updates to the FMC are coming.

https://fselite.net/content/x-plane-12-launching-in-full-come-december/

8 hours ago, OverTheEDJ said:

see the same old stagnate development that we saw with the prior XP releases

Seen this sentiment a few times. Having hung on every XP update since 2017, and having seen what was done before that I have no idea how you can say it with a straight face.

At least if not more uninformed as saying msfs 2020 is just FSX with photogrammetry or DCS 2.8 is MSFS with guns and death.

Edited November 7, 20223 yr by mSparks

DCS is great, but unfortunately I lost most of my interest in it, as well as in IL-2, due to the limitations imposed by a "flat Earth" model.

There is no curved Earth topography / physics in DCS or IL2. so, maps, unless a big update to the core model happens, have to be rather limited, and even being small have their necessary distortions, not to mention that for some of the aircraft in DCS, the curvature does play it's role in aerodynamics, not to mention those of some simulated weapons.

Even for someone trying to design scenery for DCS the task of mapping gehoid-based data to their flat model is really cumbersome... 

Then I really found some of the modelling details for instance on the WW2 fighters, starting in 2012 with the P51D and then later with even the first heli - the UH-1H - not that great, and I believe helicopters can be very well reproduced in XP, and tallented developers can surelly create very good replicas of WW2 prop aircraft in XP too, less the ground physics which, IMO still in XP12, are limited... But for ground physics I do prefer IL2 GB over DCS, btw... 

Very limitative for my liking 😕

Edited November 7, 20223 yr by jcomm

I gave up on hyper-realistic combat sims and settled for fun instead.

https://store.steampowered.com/app/1347550/Tiny_Combat_Arena/

 

No worrying about round earth, targeting and flightmodel intricacies when you can gun it out head to head with a Shilka.

Edited November 7, 20223 yr by Bjoern

14 hours ago, OverTheEDJ said:

It seems like the flight sim world was in need of a video game developer...

Is this the developer that ditched its flight sim product for years?

 

 

44 minutes ago, MrBitstFlyer said:

Is this the developer that ditched its flight sim product for years?

And will do again ... we all know, it was announced MSFS 2020 is a 10 year project. And afterwards? They might stop it even earlier, no one knows for sure, if you learn from history.

7 hours ago, BobFS88 said:

Again you are proving my point that using Steams numbers on its face values give a misleading impression on the interest in Xplane. User of Xplane don't all go the Steam. As matter of fact, when it comes to VR, some people express their wish to not use it at all simply because they don't like the performance with SteamVR and would rather use OpenVR which they are very excited about. That is one of the reason why  the numbers are so low is because they are not using Steam.

Nope, Steam proves the point just well. There are more users sticking with XP11 on Steam. You can't get around that fact. Said another way...everyday (according to steam) some 800 users chose to go with the old, instead of the new.

 

7 hours ago, BobFS88 said:

But you are willing to cast doubt without one shred of evidence  and ignoring the history of the success and progress of company that has been around for some 30 years straight while other was keep alive on life support by its third party for 14 years when their corp executive did feel necessary to keep it alive and yet the blind faith continues based on 1 and half video.  

If you call just getting to clouds in 2022 success and progress, then there is not much I can to raise your apparent low standards.

Let's not talk about life support, because we would have to talk about the freeware gateway airports (from a starving community) that has kept XP "in the game" for years. Otherwise everyone would have to fly from and land back at KSEA.

 

7 hours ago, BobFS88 said:

LR does have to prove anything. they show commitment by staying in the game, MS has not.

You mean staying in the game with no real development for years???

Nope, you show commitment by partnering with those who do it better (for avionics, weather etc), you seek the help and feedback from the community, you have live streams, constant updates and communicate your intentions. You set a schedule (out for months) and stick to it. MS has done all of this....XP has not.

6 hours ago, mSparks said:

Seen this sentiment a few times. Having hung on every XP update since 2017, and having seen what was done before that I have no idea how you can say it with a straight face.

At least if not more uninformed as saying msfs 2020 is just FSX with photogrammetry or DCS 2.8 is MSFS with guns and death.

I have seen this denial a few times, but thankfully only on this sub-forum that seems to conjure up an alternate reality concerning XP's shortcomings. It is telling how some of the most loyal XP users (in here) don't feel comfortable posting anywhere else. Enjoy your safe haven...

1 hour ago, MrBitstFlyer said:

Is this the developer that ditched its flight sim product for years?

Yep the same Dev that now has millions of users, the console sim on lock, a recent collaboration with Nvidia and featured in their DLSS3 promotion...I don't think many get how epic the energy / synergy was around this in the PC space.

You can make sly remarks about MSFS all day...but...."don't call it a comeback...they've been here for years..."