No doubt that msfs is the sim for gamers. And agree they usually don’t stick around. But we shouldn’t forget that many hardcore sim pilots also exclusively fly airliners and other payware in msfs. Either way. It will be very interesting to watch xp12 mature over the coming year. Also will be interesting to see what comes from p3d next. 

@XST  Interesting post. I share your views regarding the commercial third-party developers, and since I also use MSFS (and have spent a good sum of money on add-ons), we all benefit in the end from the multiple options we can get as a niche market. I don't have your information nor access to sources directly involved in the third-party world of developers, but it makes sense from a business point of view to jump into the MSFS market not only because it's bigger but also because it is full of opportunities by being a fresh-start ecosystem. However, this won't stay like that forever. You can only have so many 737s and Airbuses, or versions of Frankfurt, SFO, or JFK available for purchase. It's crowded already and it's going to get worse (and this is something that Umberto from FSDT mentioned many months ago). Eventually, just like in XP, FSX and P3D, the market will balance itself, and the good developers will prevail, and the newcomers who didn't flourish will either cease to exist or just enjoy whatever breadcrumbs they manage to land in their bank accounts. Nothing new under the sun, if you ask me.

The same applies to X-Plane. If many of these add-on authors you mentioned leave, they will eventually return once X-Plane 12 matures or just open what was their space in the ecosystem for new developers to benefit. MSFS market is in a gold-rush state right now, and that's great btw... I'm not on a mission (unlike others around here) to disqualify MSFS! I still wish most developers would target my three platforms (P3D, MSFS and X-Plane). Having said that, if you are a serious and established commercial developer, you definitely have to keep an eye on all platforms, that's why the best add-on developers keep releasing products, albeit at a slower pace, for drying markets such as P3D and to some extent even X-Plane. I, for one, would hate to be burned again by Microsoft if they decide to leave the flight sim world. If you are a serious business in this field, the risk of putting all eggs in the same basket is not something that can be overlooked. There is already a precedent. 

We as consumers should just enjoy the current state of things. We have a great simulator for low-and-slow VFR which is also beginning to see airliners such as PMDG's 737 and Fenix A320, we have a great mature and stable simulator for flying heavies that haven't made their way (yet) to MSFS, and we have a new-born iteration of X-Plane that will always have a place in the market for people who don't use Windows, for helicopter fans, for experimental projects and for engineering users. Which, btw will also be great for VFR and airline flying once it evolves (no one can deny XP11 is perfectly capable for users in these two categories!).

As I've said many other times in this thread: time will tell.

1 minute ago, micstatic said:

No doubt that msfs is the sim for gamers. And agree they usually don’t stick around. But we shouldn’t forget that many hardcore sim pilots also exclusively fly airliners and other payware in msfs. Either way. It will be very interesting to watch xp12 mature over the coming year. Also will be interesting to see what comes from p3d next. 

I think you are painting with a very broad stroke. This "labelling" of consoles users are not being "nerdy enough" to be hardcore into flight simming is very tiresome. If any of you would hang out with the Xbox MSFS users, you would see that a lot of them are as hardcore if not than most of us. It's not because you cannot afford to buy a PC , that you automatically fall into the , I just want to buzz the toward and fly over my house category. And yes, casuals do exist. There is nothing wrong with that. I think that's how most of us started in the first place in the same way  someone may start with Xplane on Mobile and eventually move toward PC. We shouldn't look down on them, They are an important part of the ecosystem and the survival of flight simming hobby in general, Without the new blood, the hobby will not survive. 
 

8 minutes ago, Crunchmeister said:

This is how they got the mass-market appeal.

Yes, and the idea was genius on several levels perhaps not the least of which was as a segue towards more sustained flight simming.  Of every 100 that install MSFS for Xbox a percentage of those will get hooked and so further support content providers and hardware peripherals.  

5 minutes ago, fogboundturtle said:

I think you are painting with a very broad stroke. This "labelling" of consoles users are not being "nerdy enough" to be hardcore into flight simming is very tiresome. If any of you would hang out with the Xbox MSFS users, you would see that a lot of them are as hardcore if not than most of us. It's not because you cannot afford to buy a PC , that you automatically fall into the , I just want to buzz the toward and fly over my house category. And yes, casuals do exist. There is nothing wrong with that. I think that's how most of us started in the first place in the same way  someone may start with Xplane on Mobile and eventually move toward PC. We shouldn't look down on them, They are an important part of the ecosystem and the survival of flight simming hobby in general, Without the new blood, the hobby will not survive. 
 

You are inferring something I didn’t say. I have nothing against Xbox users. The term gamer to me in regards to flight sim are the fly over their house ones. This could be on a computer or Xbox 

Just now, micstatic said:

You are inferring something I didn’t say. I have nothing against Xbox users. The term gamer to me in regards to flight sim are the fly over their house ones. This could be on a computer or Xbox 

I think they are an important part of the ecosystem. We shouldn't gatekeep them like an elitist group. It's the "gamer" that you talk about that initiated a renaissance of flight sim hardware peripheral. Something that we all needed for a long time. The gamers are really the backbone of the hobby.

11 minutes ago, Crunchmeister said:

X-Plane still does a bunch of things better. There's no arguing that. But that gap is closing. And anyone who says otherwise isn't looking at things objectively. 

I agree with your statements and as a (mostly) tubeliner simmer myself I have little doubt in the capabilities of Asobo to turn MSFS into a valid P3D alternative sometime down the road. However, in this case (regarding your quote above), it's also important to mention that Laminar Research isn't standing idly. X-Plane 11.00 is very different to X-Plane 11.55. So... we can expect the same level of commitment from LR during the lifecycle of XP12. There's one thing I personally like about Laminar Research and the team behind Austin: they are passionate about their product and you know they will do what it takes to make it better.  I'm not saying Asobo isn't, I admit they have improved - a lot - lately, but in the end, they are a game development studio (a business!) and MSFS is one of their customers. They will always be attached to the corporate priorities and decisions that their partners at Microsoft define. 

2 minutes ago, fogboundturtle said:

I think they are an important part of the ecosystem. We shouldn't gatekeep them like an elitist group. It's the "gamer" that you talk about that initiated a renaissance of flight sim hardware peripheral. Something that we all needed for a long time. The gamers are really the backbone of the hobby.

I’m not going to get into a debate with you. Mainly because it has nothing to do with this thread. I don’t have any issues with gamers. The main point I was supporting was that the fly over the house type likely won’t be interested in flight simulation for a long period of time. 

4 minutes ago, micstatic said:

The term gamer to me in regards to flight sim are the fly over their house ones. This could be on a computer or Xbox 

I have flown over my house in a Cessna 152, two of my daughters waved up at me as I circled above them.
Into which of your boxes does that fit?
People don't fit into boxes, if they did, the world would be a much easier place to live in.

1 minute ago, evaamo said:

There's one thing I personally like about Laminar Research and the team behind Austin: they are passionate about their product

Unfortunately passion is not enough. Meyer should sell XP or step down so that the necessary investment is forthcoming to bring the sim up to date and move it into the future. Three men in a shed don't stand a chance with regard to modern software.

3 minutes ago, fogboundturtle said:

The gamers are really the backbone of the hobby.

I agree that gamers are a welcome stream of life to our hobby, but calling them backbone is a bit far-fetched. There wouldn't be a flightsim hobby if it wasn't for the hard-core simmer. I'm sure companies such as A2A, FSLabs and PMDG could give you stronger arguments than me... not so Aerosoft, for example. 

Regarding the previous points and the drastic change in his business, Mr. Meyer has already announced his new business strategy. It happened in the OrbX video IIRC. LR are going to concentrate on the pro market now. This is IMHO a sensible decision, maybe the only sensible one left right now. Their home use sales will go down or did already. That means they are selling less licenses. So to remain in business they must sell their licenses for a higher price. Only pro customers will pay this higher price.

Plus they will still be able to sell to home users in the Linux and Mac ecosystems, where the only competition is FlightGear and of course XP12 is better than FlightGear in most aspects as FG is an non profit open source operation. This market plus the pro market must now compensate for the declining windows market or LR will go out of business sooner or later.

Just now, jarmstro said:

Unfortunately passion is not enough. Meyer should sell XP or step down so that the necessary investment is forthcoming to bring the sim up to date and move it into the future. Three men in a shed don't stand a chance with regard to modern software.

Yet after all these years, here they are. I've been an X-Plane user since version 5.

And by disqualifying Laminar as incapable by being "three men in a shed" ... I reckon you haven't heard about Hardy Heinlin and Aerowinx?. 

5 minutes ago, evaamo said:

I agree that gamers are a welcome stream of life to our hobby, but calling them backbone is a bit far-fetched. There wouldn't be a flightsim hobby if it wasn't for the hard-core simmer. I'm sure companies such as A2A, FSLabs and PMDG could give you stronger arguments than me... not so Aerosoft, for example. 

Casual always existed but always seen at the outsider to the hobby. Gatekeeping has been part of flight simming as far as I remember.  MSFS has change that. It made it acceptable to enjoy the hobby without going hardcore. Some of it  might not stay for a very long time, other will have found a hobby forever. I know a streamer who can barely understand the basic of aviation and is now pretty darn knowledge. Every day, that person is more and more going to the "I want that high fidelity model" now. That would have never happen if P3D or Xplane was the only option. The learning curve is just too hard. I started in FSX before I move to XP10, it took me a while to get there. Everyone seems to forget we all start as casual. I started with a Xbox controller. Now I got more gear than I can install on my desk. I got more aircraft that I can fly.

Edited September 9, 20223 yr by fogboundturtle

4 minutes ago, jarmstro said:

Unfortunately passion is not enough. Meyer should sell XP or step down so that the necessary investment is forthcoming to bring the sim up to date and move it into the future. Three men in a shed don't stand a chance with regard to modern software.

Austin is not going to sell LR because you keep repeating it in these forums. That comment is getting old as your profile picture 😉