I bought XP-11 on Steam Summer Sale and I am pleasantly surprised. I will list first good and then needs improved in 12.

Scenery. Very good over Pennsylvania so far. Only region I have flown over, my region. The default airports were a great surprise to me. Even the small regional are very detailed and close to their actual appearance. The small towns and cities are nicely done and the street grids are very close to actual.

Flight Modeling. Better than MS. I'm going for PPL in a C182 and I also nearly exclusively sim A2A. I can tell you the flight modeling is a step up 

Systems. Lots of functionality. Better than MS. Can enter flight plans in GPS/INS. 

Terrain. I can navigate the region by pilotage. Says it all.

PC Performance. Outstanding. 80 plus FPS on max settings.

Now for my needs improvement list.

ATC. Words cannot describe. Needs a lot of work especially the Cylon voices. 

Weather. No depth. Needs a P3D 5 style upgrade.

Contact physics. Ground incursions should be simulated. Aprons and ramps can get crowded. 

AI Aircraft. Needs more, a lot more. But what good would that be with the tin box ATC system. .

if X-Plane 12 spruces these items up I will definatley be a customer. In fact, if Austin would have just overhauled the ATC I doubt I would do P3D very often 

 

Oh no , popcorn time again ? Too much popcorn can cause gas and diarrhea 

Sorry no popcorn, salt not good for the heart and veins.

1 hour ago, Humpty said:

Oh no , popcorn time again ? Too much popcorn can cause gas and diarrhea 

Ooops !  I just eaten that 😕

Actually it looks like a rather unbiased opinion from a new X-Plane user, and I do hope it can get even better when he ( and me too... ) get's the chance to try XP12.

I myself have to confess I am LOVING MFS ( as per my sig ) and it is now a bit difficult to feel like I used to when I was dreaming of the day I could get my hands on XP12 some good months ago, but I still look fwd to try it and I am sure I am going to like some of it's aspects. It surely has potential, just like XP11 had in it's time ( and still has, with the best addons ).

For me, due to age probably, they're all the same, with pros & cons, each with it's own pros and it's own cons, all miserably representing what I would expect to be the easiest thing to model - a glider !

I want to try gliders in XP12 !

If one day MFS or XP do gliders OK, and soaring weather acceptably with it's various interesting nuances, I'll uninstall all of the others 🙂 

 

Edited July 18, 20223 yr by jcomm

1 hour ago, jcomm said:

I myself have to confess I am LOVING MFS ( as per my sig ) and it is now a bit difficult to feel like I used to when I was dreaming of the day I could get my hands on XP12 some good months ago, but I still look fwd to try it and I am sure I am going to like some of it's aspects. It surely has potential, just like XP11 had in it's time ( and still has, with the best addons ).

For me, due to age probably, they're all the same, with pros & cons, each with it's own pros and it's own cons, all miserably representing what I would expect to be the easiest thing to model - a glider !

I want to try gliders in XP12 !

If one day MFS or XP do gliders OK, and soaring weather acceptably with it's various interesting nuances, I'll uninstall all of the others 🙂 

 

How long do you think MFS will last on your system ? 

3 hours ago, Humpty said:

How long do you think MFS will last on your system ? 

Hundreds ( of seconds )...

Of 1 thing I am sure - XP12 is not going to replace MFS 2020 but rather to ( has HiFlyer expressed so well ) be bought for the sake of completeness, and to use with a couple of add-ons I really like.

I'm not a fundamentalist, and not even the argument of a better flight dynamics model is valid for me anymore - I want to look / taste the end result and truth is, I can get as good end results in MFS as I do in XP11, and vice versa, all factors being taken into consideration, like those directly related to the fact that a desktop flightsim, and the hardware controllers most of it's users have to use, are always limitative of a "true flight experience".

The functionality, plausibility and performance are now the main factors for my choice. For instance, I look fwd to see how XP12 implements ATC and AI Traffic or RW Traffic and how it interacts with it's built in ATC. So far what MFS provides is just as good as I could expect from a default feature.

Weather is yet another important factor but then again, long goes the time we could say X-Plane has a better weather model (*). MFS has implemented and keeps detailing and fine tuning a lot of interesting features, includes by default a very acceptable World Weather Forecast Model and it's blend with observation ( METAR ), and is bringing for an area I am particularly fond of - soaring - addtional features like thermal radiation algorithms.

So, for me at least and as far as I can forecast, XP12 while great to have will no longer be THE alternative. It is just another platform good to have and explore for it's potential, and a project that is always good to support given the dedication of the LR Team. It's turning more & more into a niche though, specially for users "limited" by MacOS or Linux OSes...

(*) This was actually never a valid argument, since excellent weather injection add-ons, like Active Sky, could complement MS FS / P3D default weather and bring it to an even superior level compared to X-Plane's weather default or with add-ons ( like ASXP which could never be as successful as it's FSX / P3D counterpart was, due to limitations imposed by the core XP weather )

Edited July 18, 20223 yr by jcomm

11 hours ago, Gary1124 said:

Weather. No depth. Needs a P3D 5 style upgrade.

XP12 weather will feature volumetric clouds, weather maps (for depicting fronts) and spiced up icing and turbulence. Austin intends to make weather as dangerous as it can be IRL.

 

11 hours ago, Gary1124 said:

Contact physics. Ground incursions should be simulated. Aprons and ramps can get crowded.

Not gonna happen AFAIK. Collision detection with anything but terrain costs CPU cycles that nobody is willing to spend. From my experience with FS9/X' collision detection, this is for the best.

 

11 hours ago, Gary1124 said:

AI Aircraft. Needs more, a lot more. But what good would that be with the tin box ATC system. .

No word on AI in XP12 yet. Don't count on any improvements and look for third party alternatives instead.

2 hours ago, Bjoern said:

XP12 weather will feature volumetric clouds, weather maps (for depicting fronts) and spiced up icing and turbulence. Austin intends to make weather as dangerous as it can be IRL.

 

Not gonna happen AFAIK. Collision detection with anything but terrain costs CPU cycles that nobody is willing to spend. From my experience with FS9/X' collision detection, this is for the best.

 

No word on AI in XP12 yet. Don't count on any improvements and look for third party alternatives instead.

I can just avoid clipping things as I would in real life. 

I have seen XP12 ATC Preview videos from last fall. New options but still mechanical.

As a student pilot I can tell you for a fact. ATC environment is 50% of a pilots skills. That and knowing the FARS. Handling the plane is about 30% and pretty scenery is for passengers. Basically more effort should be put into the TOTAL Flight experience than into eye candy. Powerlines, towers, mountains, hills house is NOT Germai. , water courses and bodies, and streets and roads are part of that but exact to realize buildings and such are not unless they are specific landmarks. The 3 story bank building on a square in some small town or the user's house is NOT integral to the total simulation experience. Coming as close as a desk can get to flying a real aircraft is.

I agree with @Gary1124 regarding the importance of a sound / plausible ATC as well as Traffic simulation now that I finally got into it with the other sim, after years escaping having to spend money in addons for that.

It gives the kind of immersion, and if well designed also chance for someone not actually familiar with RW aviation communications, that can really make a difference.

I liked what I heard about the upcoming ATC "robot" comming with XP12, described by it's designer / programmer in one of the XP12 streams. I believe it doesn't interact with AI / RW Traffic aircraft though, something that can really become entertaining and didactic.

20 hours ago, Gary1124 said:

I have seen XP12 ATC Preview videos from last fall. New options but still mechanical.

And it's not gonna get better. Love it or leave it.

 

Quote

As a student pilot I can tell you for a fact. ATC environment is 50% of a pilots skills.

And as a student pilot, you won't be content with a keyboard input based ATC UI anyway. For real, try AutoATC and keep prodding @mSparks for improvements if something's not up to spec yet (e.g. IFR, frequency database). He's spending too much time on that four-engined skywhale community project anyway. 😛

Edited July 19, 20223 yr by Bjoern

1 hour ago, Bjoern said:

And it's not gonna get better. Love it or leave it.

 

And as a student pilot, you won't be content with a keyboard input based ATC UI anyway. For real, try AutoATC and keep prodding @mSparks for improvements if something's not up to spec yet (e.g. IFR, frequency database). He's spending too much time on that four-engined skywhale community project anyway. 😛

If Austin wants to tout his simulation as most realistic he should devote a lot more to correct and convincing ATC system. I don't know if Austin himself flies or not. If he is a pilot he should know how much the ATC envoronment plays in flying. Scrap the pretty trees. Scrap the pretty water. Just fix and improve the ATC. Once more casuals, gamers, young, are taking lead in a sim. Most of the improvements are geared toward visuals, not practical essentials of a TOTAL realistic flight experience.

I use MCE in P3D/FSX. Not perfect but I can use my voice. I  suppose I could buy Pilot to ATC for X-plane. I will just wait and see what the final in 12 sounds and looks like.

2 hours ago, Gary1124 said:

If Austin wants to tout his simulation as most realistic he should devote a lot more to correct and convincing ATC system. I don't know if Austin himself flies or not. If he is a pilot he should know how much the ATC envoronment plays in flying.

I think you're asking for the impossible here. I don't believe there is any way to make the ATC interactions realistic and it'll always feel predictable, robotic and not very true to life. Whilst some improvement would be welcome, I think you can only go so far.

I know it's said a lot, but absolutely the best way in my opinion is to use a service such as PilotEdge or Vatsim. Not only will you have a real person to deal with, but also other users of the network which is about as close as you'll get to real-life ATC.

1 minute ago, tonywob said:

I think you're asking for the impossible here. I don't believe there is any way to make the ATC interactions realistic and it'll always feel predictable, robotic and not very true to life. Whilst some improvement would be welcome, I think you can only go so far.

I have heard that way too often. It's not a completely trivial task, yes. It costs development cycles, manpower, money. There is no reason why it should not be possible though. ATC follows rules. Everything rule based can be done by computers. There can be complex situations, so complex solutions are needed. Not impossible though.

Maybe someone else has to do it first and prove it's possible, wouldn't be the first time.

5 hours ago, tonywob said:

I think you're asking for the impossible here. I don't believe there is any way to make the ATC interactions realistic and it'll always feel predictable, robotic and not very true to life. Whilst some improvement would be welcome, I think you can only go so far.

I know it's said a lot, but absolutely the best way in my opinion is to use a service such as PilotEdge or Vatsim. Not only will you have a real person to deal with, but also other users of the network which is about as close as you'll get to real-life ATC.

BUT. It CAN be done better. Doesn't Laminar have access to the same voice sets in default FSX/P3D? 

What about Pilot2ATC? That does it better. I'm sure it is technologically possible to it to handle AI Planes. Why not? Default controls UTC and Traffic Global and Alpha India etc. 

I just bought MCE for my P3D set-up. I now talk to the default. Of yeah, it also can talk to PFE and Radar Contact. If as much mental effort were put into the practical essentials like accurate ATC as is put onto eye candy we would be able to declare emergencies and the whole 9. VATSIM and IVAO are great if there's enough controllers on-line. Pilot Edge is great out West I am sure. But to fill in the gaps there should be packaged. I pay a bill by phone every month. It's a bot. If I say thank you at the end of the call it says your welcome, hsve a great day. The tech is there.

MFS has implemented a very enjoyable default ATC robot which works both with just your aircrtaft if you turn off AI or RW Traffic or with all aircraft around you, while on ground, takeoff, approach, in cruise... 

MFS's ATC robot isn't fully featured but has been evolving in a good way, and it was so far the best experience I ever got from such a feature without spending a single dime. All of my latest flights in the Fenix A320 across Europe have used Real World Traffic and ATC, and it's really a great sensation to see the traffic around you and listen to them being controlled too and interacting with Center, Tower, Ground... 

Shouldn't be that difficult to implement, I guess, and just as many other features available for free in MFS, it sums up to the end experience. Can it be considered detailled enough to be used as a learning / proficiency tool ?  Well, probably as much as landing or taking off in an aircraft in MFS can towards your proficiency in operating a real aircraft ... So much for XP, name it flightsim... 

Edited July 20, 20223 yr by jcomm