2 minutes ago, craigeaglefire said:

I simply cannot believe how the flight model ‘hype’ of 1000 aerodynamic ‘points of reference’ was swallowed,

I'm sure it was their intent.  I'm also sure they didn't have time to complete everything they wanted to complete. 🙂   Maybe it works, who knows?

Hook

1 minute ago, Slides said:

In the SDK you can see all of the point variables for major airfoils are in the sim.

I already said it.  They're there, but are they used?  I haven't gone looking for them in the aircraft files.  I'll let someone else report, along with examples if possible.

Hook

There is no question about the sophisticated aerodynamics, the question is whether we are seeing the same thing, I believe the answer is no. I think people are experiencing different levels of issues and assuming it's the flight model. I do not believe it is, I think there is a bug that is only affecting certain setups, I'm trying to isolate it. Need to install on another PC soon with a different controller and duplicate a test flight in real-time and analyze differences at each point in a recording. Just going to take me a while, have some other controllers here too.

 

 

Edited August 19, 20205 yr by SceneryFX

1 minute ago, SceneryFX said:

I think there is a bug, I'm trying to isolate it.

Thank you, Sir.

In the case of adverse yaw, the config file variables are zero and the aircraft exhibit no adverse yaw.  I believe this can be fixed by assigning the correct values for the variables, but I haven't tried it yet.  In other words, not broken, just unfinished.

Please let us know anything you can find out.

Hook

36 minutes ago, LHookins said:

Funny thing how people are jumping right into the configuration files for the aircraft to find out what can be tuned.  This is the mindset of a developer, even an amateur one.  The question is not how broken something is, but is it possible to fix?

However, we have someone with a reputation as a developer who doesn't seem to care about the files and fixing the aircraft.  If no one had praised him for his previous efforts, I'd never have taken him for a developer at all, and would have called him out on it if he claimed any expertise.  He is not displaying a developer mindset.

Why is this?  Well, in the past we've seen developers attempting to defend their P3D work by bashing MSFS.  Robert has been bashing MSFS the whole time he's been here. I don't know if he has current P3D work.

Now, I know from private conversations that Robert is not the only Big Name who is quite unhappy with MSFS.  But the first thing to do is see what we can fix.  Like I posted in an earlier thread, it's not a problem, it's an opportunity.

None of this means I like everything about the MSFS flight model myself, but I'm not worried about things I might be able to fix.

Hook

So I paid $120 for something I have to fix? I don't understand the white knighting of Asobo and Microsoft from people here. The product is one of the slowest and buggiest games I've used in quite a while, and that includes a long list of "early access" games which cost 1/4 the cost of this game.

It's absolutely ridiculous to tell somebody "yeah, you bought it now fix it yourself" when the same people were laughing at P3D and "the days of tweaking configs are over".

The days of tweaking are clearly not over because now we are expected to pick up the slack that Asobo left us.

Edited August 19, 20205 yr by langly

7 minutes ago, LHookins said:

All I can say is that the adverse yaw variables are in the files.  I have not tried to create an adverse yaw in the aircraft.  Until we do this, we don't know for sure if it will work, only that it may be possible.  

Same with the "1000 points".  If none of the aircraft have anything but zeros in the config files, then we don't know what is implemented.

In all cases, someone is going to have to go in and test it.  We already know from experience that things like axis stability and aileron effectiveness (for exampe) can be tweaked.  

I've already looked at the engine gauge files.  It appears to be more sophisticated than what had been in the air files and gauge XML but some numbers aren't being calculated the same way as in P3D and I haven't experimented to see what happens if you change them.  But at this point I believe they an be fixed.

Hoo

I haven't looked in detail yet but the main cfg file appears to have a truncated version of the old-style .air file with quite a few params either removed or paired down. Adverse yaw was a very easy value to adjust and was pretty effective. I would be very surprised if it had been removed, but it's quite difficult to find as the syntax and descriptions of each param are not straightforward.

But I have little doubt you'll be able to adjust it. However I see no obvious signs that there are multiple lift points anywhere (perhaps they are hidden). It looks to me to be a slightly altered version of the bog standard FSX combined ,.air and aircraft cfg files.

Just now, langly said:

So I paid $120 for something I have to fix?

No... you paid $120 for something that SOMEONE ELSE has to fix.  You don't have the knowledge or expertise.  Not unlike all those third party aircraft you bought for your previous sim.

Maybe you weren't around to read all the times I wrote, "It's not perfect.  It's not finished.  It's still just a flight simulator."

What you have in your hands is version one point zero of an ongoing project.

For what it's worth, I haven't bought it myself.

Hook

6 minutes ago, langly said:

So I paid $120 for something I have to fix?

Could have paid $1 at Xbox store, that is what I paid so far. It's the STD version, but you can always get the other version later.

Just very interested in this chaotic aerodynamics some are reporting (as I am also experiencing it), while others claim it to be similar to P3D, that is why I am investigating. The problem is severe enough where I don't believe people would be reporting that it is similar to P3D as far as trim goes, that leaves more likelihood there is a bug.

 

Edited August 19, 20205 yr by SceneryFX

7 minutes ago, LHookins said:

Same with the "1000 points".

This keeps getting misunderstood.

Asobo never claimed that aircraft devs would manually define 1000 points. That would complete insanity to get right. Instead, you define the geometry of the flight surfaces, and the sim chops those up into individually calculated and sampled subsurfaces.

I know adverse yaw is possible because I'm testing adding some more to the DA40 right now. It's really awesome, the plane gets run through a virtual wind tunnel, you get graphs of various aero envelopes, great, great stuff. You can see the same viz that Asobo showed, with the flight surface sample lift vectors being shown.

Is it perfect? Probably not. But there really is a ton here to work with for an aircraft designer.

This rumor that it's just a lightly tweaked FSX aero model need to die. Totally unfounded.

2 minutes ago, robert young said:

main cfg file appears to have a truncated version of the old-style .air file with quite a few params either removed or paired down. Adverse yaw was a very easy value to adjust and was pretty effective. I would be very surprised if it had been removed, but it's quite difficult to find as the syntax and descriptions of each param are not straightforward.

There are several flies, the one in question is flight_model.cfg I think.  The variables that had previously been in an .air file are there, at least the ones that are used by that aircraft, and have been simplified.  They also have comments for documentation.

The adverse yaw variables have been changed since the early versions and I don't know what the release version has.  It was easy to find and change the necessary variable when it was in an .air file.  This newfangled version will take some trial and error.

Hook

17 minutes ago, craigeaglefire said:

I simply cannot believe how the flight model ‘hype’ of 1000 aerodynamic ‘points of reference’ was swallowed,

& crazy that with such advanced ‘modelling’ - No helicopters!

To me the hype lives up to the claims. You can tell from the feel of flying in windy conditions, it's like nothing else before. Not saying everything is accurate of course. 

Agree for what I know so far.

I haven't looked at the config files, but it doesn't fly anything like the FSX model, even if I remove the controller and use the keyboard. Despite the weird issues I am having (as are some others), one thing I can be sure of is the flight model does not react like the FSX one, regardless of why that is or what variables are in use.

 

Edited August 19, 20205 yr by SceneryFX

4 minutes ago, SceneryFX said:

The problem is severe enough where I don't believe people would be reporting that it is similar to P3D as far as trim goes, that leaves more likelihood there is a bug.

Lots and lots and lots of people on the Beta complained about the trim.  A major complaint was that they expected it to work like XPlane.

What happens is, you tap a trim control and you get a tiny trim adjustment.  You hold down a trim control and you get a tiny adjustment, a pause, then a continuous movement (which probably accelerates as you hold the control).  I got very used to this in P3D.

Couple this with the fact that a lot of people have real problems getting their controls configured and you have a recipe of some major complaints.

All I know is, I set it up once and had no problems with any aircraft I flew.  But keep in mind that I hand flew everything in P3D, no autopilot, so I'm used to using trim... all the time.

Note that there may be some trim bugs in landing challenges.  Or maybe those are intentional and it's a... "feature."  Not my cup of tea.

Hook

I understand, I have used FS 2004, FSX, P3D, Xplane 11, and this.

However, the trim issue I am having is not just trim, the plane is drifting and banking erratically by itself to one direction or another, even with trim completely enabled to go the other direction. It looks like a bug, I have never seen any other sim do anything close to this. I think people have varying levels of the problem, would find it hard to believe this is normal.

Plane completely banks unexpectedly and sometimes suddenly, no way to fly straight for more than a couple seconds just adjusting trim with this bug.

I think the bug (not certain) may also be tied into why enabling auto-pilot for some people is sending people into a spin. Several times I have enabled auto-pilot, the plane immediately went into a spin (different planes). Seems like a bug.

Edited August 19, 20205 yr by SceneryFX

1 minute ago, SceneryFX said:

Plane completely banks unexpectedly and sometimes suddenly, no way to fly straight for more than a couple seconds just adjusting trim with this bug.

Hm, weird.  I didn't have this problem in the Beta with the aircraft I flew.

Maybe they've improved the winds aloft. 😄  Or should I say "improved" the winds aloft.  We weren't getting much with real world weather in the Beta.

I prefer Active Sky in P3D myself, but that's a personal opinion.

Hook