Something that hasn't been mentioned is that most of the developers in the flight sim world are quite capable of working within a "sandbox" such as FSX, P3D, and XP.

 

Unfortunately, most of us do not really have the requisite abilities to develop the "nexgen sandbox".

 

Even the "tool builders" who code the ancillary programs used in the flight sim world are mostly working in that same "sandbox", or targeting the "sandbox", not really developing a new "sandbox."

 

What is needed are programmers who's talents lie in creating "sandboxes..." :Whistle:

Something that hasn't been mentioned is that most of the developers in the flight sim world are quite capable of working within a "sandbox" such as FSX, P3D, and XP.

 

Unfortunately, most of us do not really have the requisite abilities to develop the "nexgen sandbox".

 

Even the "tool builders" who code the ancillary programs used in the flight sim world are mostly working in that same "sandbox", or targeting the "sandbox", not really developing a new "sandbox."

 

What is needed are programmers who's talents lie in creating "sandboxes..." :Whistle:

 

An excellent point well made. It may happen and is indeed likely that the required programmers lie elsewhere and that they would have to be hired in, which needs money, therefore a crowdfunding campaign. If such a campaign was organized on the basis that if the funding goal is not reached, no pledged funds are ever drawn down with nobody's card charged which is something easily done, that might allay some fears. I think at the end of the day, anyone who organizes such a venture and achieves the set goal, should be allowed to profit from it on the basis that they would deserve to.

I would certainly contribute to such a campaign on the basis that there is nothing to lose and potentially such a lot to gain. As for sandboxes, I think UnigineSim is the ready to exploit sandbox. This is a rather uneducated opinion though.

...

I would certainly contribute to such a campaign on the basis that there is nothing to lose and potentially such a lot to gain. As for sandboxes, I think UnigineSim is the ready to exploit sandbox. This is a rather uneducated opinion though.

 

UnigineSim is one part of the potential shiny new sandbox.  It is not the whole sandbox.

Also required are a physics engine that will determine how the planes fly, as well as ATC, AI, multi-player, etc.

 

Doug

UnigineSim is one part of the potential shiny new sandbox.  It is not the whole sandbox.

Also required are a physics engine that will determine how the planes fly, as well as ATC, AI, multi-player, etc.

 

Doug

 

From the UnigineSim main page: "Full-featured platform for interactive real-time 3D applications: image generator, scene manager, full-featured physics engine, animation system, audio, input, pathfinding, GUI, tools, and more." Strikes me as a good start is all.

Personally, I think its as close as we want it to be. This reminds me so much of a project I was involved in (and ultimately led) where we took a bunch of unrelated emerging technology and knitted it into something completely new that had not been done before. It was not easy and the sceptics said it could not be done. How wrong were they?

 

Personally, I think your biggest asset is momentum. This needs to be nurtured and used to full advantage.

 

Bri.

 

I certainly hope that you'll join us over on the SIM-Posium... we could use you.

 

Stephen B.

 

 

In my opinion what I'm reading on this thread is what's been debated over and over for years on this very forum, i.e. people are swapping valid ideas and fantasies and posting links to various demos of 3D engines without actually producing anything concrete. Granted that everything concrete first starts as an idea, but when do we break away from the wishful talking?

 

I appreciate your perspective as that was exactly the purpose behind why I creating the NGFS SIM-Posium.... lots of talk over the years with very little action. 

 

As I've stated numerous times, the NGFS SIM-Posium allows all of us to gather in one place that is dedicated for the purpose of discussion, gathering information, implementing a plan based upon those discussions, finding the people who can actually make the plan work and motivate the community towards the development of a next generation flight simulator.

 

The NGFS SIM-Posium is a living entity that can provide the necessary assets/tools to implement a process for actually doing something... rather than just talk about it. 

 

As more and more members of the flight simulator community join in the discussion, I suspect to gain insight as to what tools we could use that would help us to better implement the ideas and talents of all those who participate.

 

I'm already looking for a program that will allow everyone to post their ideas regarding a next generation flight simulator in one central location so that ideas aren't lost in the shuffle. It would also allow everyone to vote on ideas so we all can gauge the importance of those ideas as a community.

 

So... one of the reasons for establishing the NGFS SIM-Posium is a "Call to Action".... rather than just talk.

 

Stephen B.

 

 

An excellent point well made. It may happen and is indeed likely that the required programmers lie elsewhere and that they would have to be hired in, which needs money, therefore a crowdfunding campaign. If such a campaign was organized on the basis that if the funding goal is not reached, no pledged funds are ever drawn down with nobody's card charged which is something easily done, that might allay some fears. I think at the end of the day, anyone who organizes such a venture and achieves the set goal, should be allowed to profit from it on the basis that they would deserve to.
I would certainly contribute to such a campaign on the basis that there is nothing to lose and potentially such a lot to gain. As for sandboxes, I think UnigineSim is the ready to exploit sandbox. This is a rather uneducated opinion though.

 

I'm currently working on utilizing CrowdSourcing in an attempt to access worldwide talent that lies not only in development but, business planning and management. I would much prefer (and I believe it would be beneficial to the flight simulator community as well) to find that talent among ourselves first.

 

It's true that many of our current flight simulator developers within the community are entrenched in a well established, however worn out, sandbox. There would certainly be a learning curve as we established new tools and methods for creating the simulator world and all of its assets. But... and this is a huge BUT... I believe those who are interested in participating in the movement to establish a new era in consumer flight simulator will be more than willing to take the time to learn those new skills.

 

In addition to long time flight simulator developers there are new developers as seen in many of the 3D engines forums who have an interest in flight simulation... it would be fantastic if we could recruit this new talent.

 

As far as crowdfunding is concerned... Kickstarter is my crowdfunding tool of choice for all the reason that were stated. You can find information regarding CrowdSourcing and Crowdfunding in the SIM-Posium and it's well worth the read.

 

As far as me profiting by this venture... no thanks... (well... OK... I'll take a free Next Generation Flight Simulator and a life time of free assets, but only if the community insists). First, I'm just an idea man, the real talent will deserve the full time jobs that such a venture as a next generation flight simulator can create. There's also some thoughts regarding full time positions under the FYI menu that may be of interest to those considering adding their talents towards the achievement of a next generation flight simulator.

 

Stephen B. 

UnigineSim is one part of the potential shiny new sandbox.  It is not the whole sandbox.

Also required are a physics engine that will determine how the planes fly, as well as ATC, AI, multi-player, etc.

 

Doug

 

Doug,

That's what the NGFS SIM-Posium is all about... to gain insight and find solutions. 

It's also key to note that many of those solutions are all ready available... we just have to utilize them and implement them within the next generation flight simulator.

 

Stephen B.

I'm already looking for a program that will allow everyone to post their ideas regarding a next generation flight simulator in one central location so that ideas aren't lost in the shuffle. It would also allow everyone to vote on ideas so we all can gauge the importance of those ideas as a community.

 

Yet more 'ideas'...then tools to enable even more 'ideas'.ad-infinitum.   The Sim-Posium site already has a forum where plenty of 'ideas' have already been put forward, and likewise on AVSIM  (to which I've actually contributed positively you'll be glad to hear ;-)   

 

Keep up the noble effort, but I'd be cautious of getting sidelined into diversions rather than forming something concrete financially etc... 

Yet more 'ideas'...then tools to enable even more 'ideas'.ad-infinitum.   The Sim-Posium site already has a forum where plenty of 'ideas' have already been put forward, and likewise on AVSIM  (to which I've actually contributed positively you'll be glad to hear ;-)   

 

Keep up the noble effort, but I'd be cautious of getting sidelined into diversions rather than forming something concrete financially etc... 

 

Do you realize what a formidable task it would be to go through all of the flight simulator forums and search out all the ideas, concepts, and request made over the years?

 

My solution was to create a website that would centralize the effort... not a bad idea in my opinion.

 

Now if we could get all those who have made ideas, concepts, and requests over the years to deposit them into one centralized arena... we would have the means to work out a solid plan for implementing the design of a next generation flight simulator.... not a bad idea either... just my opinion.

 

Stephen B.

 

it would also be a good idea if we could actually organize all those ideas made throughout the years... just sayin

What is needed are programmers who's talents lie in creating "sandboxes..."

 

That's why I mentioned that I will be remaining neck deep in Outerra. With actual software partially done, and the developers already hard at work, plus its own growing community, I will be right there when they begin their own kickstarter if Nexgen is doing other things. (which I will also keep an eye on!)

 

With Dovetail also on the scene, we might eventually have a plethora of new choices!

 

snipped

But... and this is a huge BUT... I believe those who are interested in participating in the movement to establish a new era in consumer flight simulator will be more than willing to take the time to learn those new skills.

 

 

I've been around flight simulation since the beginning of desktop sims. I've beta tested lots of products over the years, as well as three versions of MSFS. In my opinion, I don't think you'll find many programmers who are willing to invest the required time to learn new skills, let alone many hours of programming.............................unless there is substantial upfront salaries,  in which they can make a decent living. Flight simulation has gone way beyond................"for the love of the hobby" for most people. Too much time is required. If you're supporting a family, paying a mortgage , eating food, and spending quality time with family and friends......you'll soon find, that designing and programming software either has to be full time, with decent returns, or just become a part time endeavor (after a day job),  in which it can take many years to finally release a product. 

 

Looking back many years for both MSFS and X-Plane, there were many who continually raised the bar with freeware and payware. It always started with freeware. It was the love of the hobby. The bar kept raising, and programming went from weeks, to months, to years. Unless someone is retired, most others will need a continuous paycheck. Skilled programmers won't be working for hamburger joint wages.   I've seen many third party offerings, in which the promotions were full of good looking screen shots, and jubilant enthusiasm. Without doubt, the designer's mind was filled with ambition and good intentions . Then reality sets in. It's taking far too long, it's too involved, takes tons of research, so on, and so on. What was planned to be released within the year, has now gone into a fifth year, and the end still isn't in sight. This is reality. 

 

IMO.................unless a source of millions is provided up front, then I don't believe there will be enough willing people, who are able to continue with this project, for the long amount of time that would be required. If somehow "fully" funded, then it's realistically possible. If we are to count on enthusiasm and  love of the hobby, as a source of getting this project completed, then I think it will fizzle before it ever starts. IMO, it's just the reality of the situation. 

I've been around flight simulation since the beginning of desktop sims.

 

For myself, I both agree and disagree. Like many, I have my doubts about this project. Not that I think its technically impossible, but because I think there is a chance of foundering on the human equations you've mentioned.

 

Yet......

 

Flightgear does indeed exist, showing that on the earth are skilled, talented people that can indeed be gathered for a goal even as ambitious as a Flight simulator, and honestly, except for the graphics part of it, they have nothing to be ashamed of in their efforts. The question I wonder is whether their success was a once-in-a million freak of timing and circumstance, or are those people still out there and willing to look at new possibilities?

 

In my time with Outerra, I have seen the slow advance of the engine, but more important, I have seen people like Levi, a total unknown, come from nowhere to port over planes in record times when he claims no previous knowledge. I've seen Bomber, from the Flightgear community step forward and volunteer his time and years of previous experience on Flightgear to advance Outerra's FDM's, and Uriah, like a whirlwind of skills, tackling everything in sight....... Acetones ridiculously painstaking sceneries... Tonywobs donation of the use of his buildings......

 

Not to mention others too numerous to count who have rallied to the effort and pushed forwards through sheer enthusiasm, and a vision of what might be.

 

I think Stephen B. has his work cut out for him, but I also think it may be too easy to underestimate the accumulated skills and knowledge of those billions of people out there wandering the world, a few of whom might just be tempted to take a bit of their time and help out. I think the breaking point is to move beyond talk, and have some sort of actual software on the ground to get people excited. If its exciting enough, then people will come, I believe.

 

It's getting that first proof of concept together and out the door thats going to be a monster, and why while wishing the best for this effort, I still tend to believe Outerra has the better chance of actually producing something usable in the nearer term.

 

As I said I will help where I can, but my big money is on Outerra. (Well, until we know what DTG has up its sleeve. And dont forget Aerofly!)

 

Famine.... and then...... poof! Lots of possible directions.

Edited June 4, 201511 yr by n4gix
Removed unnecessary lengthy quote.

As mentioned before, the technology is here, the talent is around to program this, the ideas are plentiful, the only thing missing is funding.

 

As they said in the movie The Right Stuff, "no bucks, no Buck Rogers."

 

Until their is funding, and a lot of it,from private investors, corporate, or crowd funding, we can discuss this until we're blue in the face, but nothing will get done.

 

While the forum Stephen has set up is a great idea (have not visited it), who's the one that is out looking for funding?

 

 

Until their is funding, and a lot of it,from private investors, corporate, or crowd funding, we can discuss this until we're blue in the face, but nothing will get done.

While the forum Stephen has set up is a great idea (have not visited it), who's the one that is out looking for funding?

 

Discussion is what brings about planning, planning is what brings about objectivity, objectivity, brings about a realization that something can be done, knowing that something actually can be done brings about those who are willing to invest. 

 

Stephen B

Discussion is what brings about planning, planning is what brings about objectivity, objectivity, brings about a realization that something can be done, knowing that something actually can be done brings about those who are willing to invest.

 

Stephen B

Agree, but isn't that what all those tech demo have already done? They've already demonstrated what can be done and maybe have even licensed some of that technology to other developers or have created custom applications for other companies them selves.

 

So you're looking to do the same? Plan a new sim from scratch, find investors or funding, and get it built?

Do you realize what a formidable task it would be to go through all of the flight simulator forums and search out all the ideas, concepts, and request made over the years?

 

But I never said to search 'all' of the flight forums going back years. I simply meant you should have enough ideas already from the Sim-Posium forum and AVSIM to get you going.  How many ideas do you need? ;-)

 

But go ahead and do what you feel is right Stephen. You've certainly got the curiosity of many AVSIM members - both positives and negatives ...and so I wish you well.  

 

On a lighter note. Perhaps this company is wealthy and willing enough to help fund and produce the next-gen flightsim. >>

(The textures might appear a bit blocky close up, but from a distance can look amazing ;-)

 

Demo 1

https://youtu.be/UROyy6ZPnUg?t=131

 

Demo 2 - Crash damage modelling demo

https://youtu.be/YRXoY2yWnmU

 

Best wishes

 

PH