simply put- there is no excuse to bully someone else.  they are asking for help, perhaps they didn't know they could search, or they may have found this forum via Google, Bing or Ask search engines (which is how I found it) and likely being frustrated by some sim problem, post a plea for assistance.

 

true enough, some don't take time to say 'thanks', and others ask the questions that've been asked a million times before.  regardless, we don't need a 'forum bull(y)' to rain on someone else's parade.

 

such antics eventually drive good members away.  another person wrote a reminder that we all were 'noobs' once upon a time.  whether it was 10 years ago or 10 minutes ago, we all walked the same path.  some of us asked for help from time to time (i have) and others freely gave their help (i have) as well.  to me, that is the main advantage of belonging to forums.  giving and receiving information.

 

it's regrettable when some folks get fed up and depart the forums.  i can think of one soul who is a fount of knowledge about our hobby, 30 years RW pilot and has the killer RW simulator of all time.  he no longer 'does' forums.  simply had enough of the childish types.

 

it's up to us (and our moderators) to keep the lid on bullies.  how hard can it be to simply disregard a question if you feel it is redundant?  another way of saying 'get a life'...

I was pretty sure they didn't exist to begin with, but to be sure I went back a few pages to find:

 

"a bunch of people laying into those that "choose" to treat today's high end addons as study sims and have a found a place to discuss the more technical aspect of these machines"

 

...and didn't find any.

 

Care to clarify for the sake of discussion ?

Brian,

 

I browsed the last few pages and saw people tar everyone with the same brush, 'I don't visit the PMDG forums' etc

 

It's not that bad, I rotate through four aviation forums on the web, PMDG forum is probably the most friendly place for new comers out of all of them.

I think the point of contention was that what you wrote comes with the strong implication that those weighing in in this thread on the subject of rudeness on the PMDG forums or elsewhere on Avsim are only the casual simmers and gamers who fail to appreciate the power of the "study sim". 

 

Where does the problem lie?  Serious simmers telling the casual ones they aren't serious enough, or casual simmers telling the serious simmers they are too serious?  Probably both.  I happen to be more on the serious side because of the time and money I've spent on the hobby, and have gotten in many battles of the sort, about the relative seriousness of a feature, a simplification, a bug, or just the overall level of realism represented in any given product.  But regardless, who appreciates being talked down to like a schoolboy by a rtfm goon?

Rob,

 

I am sorry but I do not agree.

 

For one, it really is just one person we're talking about, but not wishing to turn this into a one track discussion, everyone has refrained from saying who.

 

Secondly, the only comparison I will discuss is AVSIM to itself, in the sense of how things have changed over the years for better or worse.

 

How AVISM compares to the rest of the internet is entirely irrelevant, and there are far more appropriate sites for purely technical discussion if one wishes to not have it sullied by us lowly MS sim users.

 

Look, I a more than willing to maintain a respectful discussion, as we are now, to hopefully get some clarification on the points you are trying to make. To be clear though, any respect I have for you will not be based on your credentials/experience/qualifications, but rather on how you choose to communicate those points. 

 

For me this is purely a hobby, a pastime, and while I can't be entirely certain, I'd bet that holds true for a great majority of the members here. Now personally, I am more than willing to make room for the more serious side of the hobby that is developing, but only so far as it maintains respect for the fact that the rest of us were here long before. In fact, it would be prudent of those having recent success to keep in mind that it was the casual/non-professional simming community that supported them long enough to get to where they are today.

 

I look forward to anything you might have to add.

I think the point of contention was that what you wrote comes with the strong implication that those weighing in on the subject of rudeness on the PMDG forums or elsewhere on Avsim are only the casual simmers and gamers who fail to appreciate the power of the "study sim".

No, that's not what I meant at all, and this is what I mean by some weird insecurity or thinking others are on some power trip... "Fail to appreciate the power of the study sim'

 

What? I'm out of here ...

 

edit - Bryan, I guess I have an idea who you are talking about but don't want to get involved. I will leave you guys to it.

 

Kind regards

Quite funny reading all these posts A topic about rudeness and intolerance to those 'casual simmers & newbies' yet we have a bunch of people laying into those that "choose" to treat today's high end addons as study sims and have a found a place to discuss the more technical aspect of these machines.... Just reeks of some weird internet insecurity to me.. But that's just my opinion.

 

The PMDG forums can be a little brutal at times, but on the whole I find a good bunch of knowledgable people over there that I have come to respect.

 

People should never be rude but we are human at the end of the day, I avoid telling people to RTFM and try to be as helpful as possible, but honestly it does help to read if you plan to venture into study sim territory blast off if your brand new NG then head straight to a forum asking 'WHY DOESNT THIS WORK'

 

Most arguments on the PMDG forums tend to come down to some not realising that aviation is not rigid, even at the highest level of professionalism you will find many ways to achieve the same goal, this is why company's have operating procedures and don't blindly follow Mr Boeing or Airbus's recomendations.

 

Anyway, don't want to go on... Just remember that the personas that you see on the Avsim forums are just a fraction of those peoples lives, so don't be so quick to judge.

 

Personally I think flight simulation is evolving for the better, just that we as imperfect humans have to catch up and learn to accept we have differant goals when we fire up the sim. Six years ago I would never recommend Microsoft flight simualtor to anyone studying for a type rating, that's most definitely changed now.

 

If you want to fly inverted under the Golden Gate Bridge in your PJ's drinking tequila (I've done that!) more power to you, if you want to fly a mid level sim with awesome immersion, that's great. And if studying the complex hydraulic system and having heated debates with your fellow simmers is your thing then so be it.

 

- I don't see anyone doing that Rob.    The emphasis is on fun and enjoyment;  whether that is fun and enjoyment pittling around in a default cub, or absorbed in the FSL Concorde X's fuel system.  

 

This thread as a whole is about how we can sometimes be rude to eachother within the community, and the last few pages is just focussing on the element that take themselves very seriously and sometimes come across as intimidating and condenscending in doing so.

No, that's not what I meant at all, and this is what I mean by some weird insecurity or thinking others are on some power trip... "Fail to appreciate the power of the study sim'

 

What? I'm out of here ...

 

edit - Bryan, I guess I have an idea who you are talking about but don't want to get involved. I will leave you guys to it.

 

Kind regards

 

So you join a discussion long in progress, build a strawman to suit an argument you want to insert, and then bail when you realize no one is buying it ?

However you wanna take it Brian... I wasn't building an argument or take away valid concerns for others in the community, just speaking my mind & stating an opinion based on being around here a long time. That opinion is live and let live.

 

If you think someone is being an a** don't judge them on a few select posts, all the guys I know that are blunt around here can also be the most helpful, and please, definitely don't huddle together and b**** about it. Tell them directly.. I'll leave you guys to it, you have every right to vent if your not happy

I've gotten much the same impression that Rob has from the last couple of pages.  I'm not a tube guy, let alone a PMDG tube guy, but I enjoy reading some of the more generic aviation topics discussed there as civil aviation and the details of it are things I care about.

 

As Rob describes, I would expect a sub-forum dedicated to sim add-ons who's raison d'etre is extreme system depth, accuracy and sweating the real-world details to attract simmers who value such things, and to have a low tolerance for some kinds of questions.  And yes, I would also expect such a sub-forum will have its share of "know-it-alls", but those exist everywhere and in every hobby - YouTube probably isn't the best place to mine for criticisms as YouTube comments are almost uniformly inane, not just from PMDG simmers.

 

I still, these many posts later, don't see an endemic problem with Avsim, most of its posters or the way it's moderated.  Much of what's been discussed boils down to style differences, and a strong need for tolerance of other opinions and styles and yes, sometimes growing a bit thicker skin.  I often see offense taken where no offense was actually offered.

 

Scott

I will say it one more time folks, if you see someone who's behavior puts at risk the participation of others, push the REPORT button. Let us deal with the individual. We have a warning category called ABUSIVE BEHAVIOR and we will use it to shed light to the user who is abusive and driving others away. This applies to any forum, PMDG's, HiFi's, etc. All forums here at AVSIM. If you don't do that, you are not helping us to solve the problem; you are abetting it.

However you wanna take it Brian... I wasn't building an argument, stating an opinion based on being around here a long time. That opinion is live and let live, if you think someone is being an a** don't judge them on a few select posts, and most definitely don't huddle together and b**** about it. Tell them

 

That's not what I'm talking about, I'm talking about the immediate "well you guys are all insecure I'm outta here" nonsense, as soon as you got a reply.

Brian, I slightly changed my post as you were typing, don't wanna get involved mate Enyoy your evening

You too I guess  :unknw:

Easy guys.

 

Just a suggestion since I can't give warnings:

 

If you can't smell what is cooking, get out of the kitchen because strident direct accusations will cause closure of this thread. That would be a shame since IMHO it is one of the more relevant ones to date, even if a reader needs an Elfish secret decoder and the light of the harvest moon to understand the meaning of the hidden messages (yes, I just saw "Smaug*" and it was great!).

 

*In 3D

Point well taken Stephen, and I do apologize again for pointing the thread in that direction.