I was watching a few landing videos online -- I see a lot of yoke movement -- is that just due to the feedback and the pilots 'fighting' to keep the plane aligned? And how much deviation would you use from the center line before using the rudder -- 5 degrees?

 

I have the PFC yoke, and it is set to be extremely sensitive -- when I move the yoke, the plane immediately follows.

 

Thanks,

 

Ben

Good question - I wonder about this too... Seems like the pilots are moving the yoke around alot. Does it stay in one position when moved, or does it go right back to center when let go?

 

Bill

KPHL

Me too, in fact it often looks like they're using an original Saitek yoke :lol:

Yoke sensitivities IRL depend on the aircraft type, how heavy it is, how fast or slow you are going in relation to its normal cruise or max speeds, and in cable controlled aircraft even how well lubricated the pulleys and whatnot are. So it's very variable. Beavers (for instance) are very light on the controls, even at full loads, but the yoke is not sensitive at all. You move it a long way to get much result. This is because of how this airplane flies. The Cessna 185 on the other hand, even on floats is more like a sports car. At cruise you don't have to move it very far before you get a lot of result. Conversely on approach you have to move it much more to get the same amount of reaction (but at a much slower rate of change) because the airflow is that much less at approach speeds than at higher cruise speeds. It really depends on the airflow going over the surfaces. The 737 I'm sure will be similar, but with perhaps a greater change in the amount of movement required to change the direction of the aircraft due to a greater difference between approach and cruise speeds, and also the far greater mass of that aircraft compared to the lighter machines.

 

If you let go of the stick, it will return to the "neutral" position, but that's based on where you have your trim set. The idea is to set your trim so it will fly hands off. Most modern (i.e. in the past 40 years or so) are designed to fly quite well hands off and are positively stable (meaning that if you deviate from your trimmed setting, it will try to return to that trimmed position if you let go of the stick). The Beaver, a much older airplane is less likely to do so as it's "sloppy" and it's more neutrally stable, meaning it tends to wander from the neutral position more easily. I understand from friends that the 737 and 757's are quite stable and do tend to fly well with little input. When you watch a pilot giving near full deflection on the stick while on approach (especially once in the landing configuration and you're really slowed up), it's usually due to turbulence and you are quite slow (relatively speaking) so more deflection is required for the same result. If you moved the controls like that at altitude and cruise speed, you'd have the passengers all diving for their sick-sacks and probably the wings would be complaining strenuously about the rough treatment :smile:, not to mention ATC asking who gave you permission to be doing aerobatics along a designated high altitude airway!

 

Hope that helps.

Thanks... So for take off on say a 737 or 747, when following the flight director, I guess there is constant back pressure and triming going on to follow the command bars? Without any trim, the yoke would simply go right back to center/neutral?

Yes, well takeoff is a transition period (likely the biggest transition there is in flight). Your trim is set roughly so that when you rotate and achieve V2 + 10 (I think), you should be something close to trimmed up. However, it's a rough figure and you aren't at that speed very long, so yes, you will be frequently adjusting the trim to assist you in following the bar. Remember though, you use the elevator to achieve the attitude (in fact, you use the elevator to control pitch, which controls airspeed), then use the trim to remove the control forces. Once you are trimmed up after cleaning up and achieving your climb speed (let's say at 250 indicated to 10,000), you shouldn't have to pull back or push forward on the stick. Holding it in the centre position will mean you will maintain the attitude for that power setting to hold 250 kts.

 

Now FS isn't the best for simulating that, and real world control yokes don't have springs in them, so you have to temper all that a bit. But yes, you shouldn't have to be pulling or pushing against those springs on your joystick/yoke to hold that attitude. The procedure is, get the attitude and power setting that holds the speed and altitude or rate of climb/descent respectively you are searching for, then trim so you don't have to push/pull on the stick.

737 is all artificial feel and springs. An aft CG makes it "pitchy."

 

Centering units return the yoke to the position you trimmed it for. Not much aerodynamics involved until the hydraulics are gone.

Glenn

 

Very useful info right there - thanks for taking the time.

I calibrate my yoke directly in FSUIPC and I get about the same control input to plane response as shown in videos.

I calibrate my yoke directly in FSUIPC and I get about the same control input to plane response as shown in videos.

 

Me too. I have the PFC yoke (AWESOME!) and having calibrated in FSUIPC I get the same yoke imputs like you see on the real 737. If you can afford it there is no equal.

Please share your settings for Saitek PFY.

Thanks for the information. I guess it all comes down to force feedback. Pitty we don't have many force feed back yokes in the market.

Short answer:

 

Pretty sensitive. The difference from sim yokes to real life yokes is amount of pressure needed to go full deflection. From there, each aircraft is different in responsiveness.

 

Nice write up, Glenn! I enjoyed that.

The 737s feel and sensitivity can vary quite a bit but from my experience and what I have heard it is less sensitive than other airliners. Now my experience is puerly -800s. I have been told the -800, -900 fly alike and the smaller ones tend to fly different. I hand fly all the way to cruise and in smooth air I can typically keep the plane right on the FD by just putting pressure on the yoke. You almost can't see it move. On the other hand on approach I find I have to move the yoke quite a bit to get the desired response. Actually one night with the autopilot on during a stormy approach the yoke was moving so much I almost started laguhing. I flew the Fokker 100 before the 737 and that plane was a lot more sensitive. You never had to move the yoke much and it had a smooth crisp feel. Much nicer than the 737. Actually it took several sim sessions in training to get used to the difference between the two planes. I am told by guys who have flown both that the 757/767 is more like the F100 too.

 

The OP asked about using rudder. What they are teaching is is that rudder is only necessary during engine failures and crosswind landings. The yaw damper will take care of the rest.

I've flown aircraft IRL up to the size of a Gulfstream G-1 (which is roughly the size of a Dash 8-100). The main problem with any desktop simulators when it comes to flight controls is the fact that most hardware abvailable on the market such as saitek, CH, etc, Have very little resistance built in to them when comparing to the resistance you would find in a real aircraft. Another issue is that as said above when an aircraft is flying at low speed, the controls are very mushy and are less sensitive, more input required to manoeuver. At high speed at cruise altitude, such as on the G-1 ( 280 KTAS at FL250) It takes very little movement to change attitude, and the controls are much heavier. What would really be needed for more realism is a force feedback yoke whcih simulates this increase in resistance as an aircraft accelerates. Unfortunetly the ones I have found are extremely expensive. The yoke I use is the PFC column yoke which is the closest I have experienced to real with its sturdy resistance built into it (however no FF)

 

Alex

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