In yesterday's "Latest Files" I observed a checklist for the PMDG 737 submitted by Cuyler Smith (pmdg737-700.zip). It is a slightly modified cut and paste of the checklist I created and uploaded to AVSIM for the DreamFleet 737 (df737_version_10_checklists.zip). If you're unfamiliar with my checklist, it is perhaps the most comprehensive FS checklist around. It represents months of research, full-motion flight sim time, 737 pilot interviews, etc. Although Cuyler Smith never asked for permission to copy my material, he did mention me in the file description. I wasn't pleased, but I wasn't too bothered either. Now today, I see that a Marcel Venema has uploaded another PMDG 737 checklist (pmdg_boeing_737ng_checklists.zip) which is a very slightly modified cut and paste of my checklist as well. Not only did this guy not ask permission either, but he doesn't reference me at all. He even pasted PMDG's logos into his. Now I have to step up and say something. I have contacted the library moderators. I am pleased that my checklists are of use to so many, but please don't steal my work. It is intellectual property and therefore protected. Sure a checklist is a checklist, but take a moment and compare them. It's the same format, same abbreviations, same symbols, same phraseology, etc. Like I said, it's a cut and paste. Rest assured that I am working on an original Boyd Barker PMDG 737 checklist and it will be finished within the next month or so. Cheers to you all!Boyd Barker, Senior Command CaptainDirector of Special ProjectsKBOS Hub ManagerWestWind Airlineswww.flywestwind.com

Hey BoydI know and use you work and am shocked to see it swiped.Give em Hell man.Best RegardsTed

Thanks for that Ted! AVSIM promptly removed the most recent file.Boyd Barker, Senior Command CaptainDirector of Special ProjectsKBOS Hub ManagerWestWind Airlineswww.flywestwind.com

> AVSIM promptly removed the most recent fileYes, that's the right thing to do !People should refrain using material that is derived from your work without proper permission.BUMPanthonyAnthony MertonPrecision Manuals Developmenthttp://www.precisionmanuals.com

Both of these guys are now e-mailing me claiming that they don't understand that what they did was wrong. Am I nuts or is it simple...if you cut and paste someone else's work, then you're stealing someone else's work. Right? If someone else put time, thought, and effort into creating something, then isn't it their own intellectual property whether it has a sign on it saying "Intellectual Property" or not? Right? Am I going nuts here?Boyd Barker, Senior Command CaptainDirector of Special ProjectsKBOS Hub ManagerWestWind Airlineswww.flywestwind.com

BoydI agree if not in a strictly legal sense then at least in moral thought.The fact that they take your work (freeware) and use it as their own and see nothing wrong with it is just another indication of the decay of the community as far as I`m concerned.Stick by your guns Boyd as there are folks that use your work and appreciate you sharing with us.Best RegardsTed

hey anthony, i agreebut my question is to what degree would you apply what you say?as you may know the B737 NG QRH manual is also the work of somebody(or at least of boeing), and as i see it the checklists are quite similar....(allmost exact except for a left out part) and if you check the checklist provided with the NG(PMDG) you'll find no reference whatsoever about Boeing's material references...?Of course i realise that the scale of this issue is much smaller but i thought maybe it's something to consider?

You are not nuts. They clearly derived their work from yours.Lee Hetherington (KBED)

What makes you think we use Boeing material without being entitled to ?anthonyAnthony MertonPrecision Manuals Developmenthttp://www.precisionmanuals.com

It IS wrong, not the major crime of our century but nonetheless wrong and insted of claiming ignorance they should be trying to remedy the situation. When I made a panel I used two things from other authors and GOT PERMISSION FIRST. This is clearly stated in my readme. [h5]Best Wishes,Randy J. Smith [h4]P M D G 7 3 7 NG[/h4]http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2003-8/196432/mineimage.jpg [h3] Realism on the horizon [h5]AMD XP 2200 |MUNCHKIN 512 DDR RAM |ECS[/b ][i] K7S5A MB[/i] |GF2 MX 32 MEG and still runs GOOD!|WIN XP PRO |MITSUBISHI DIAMOND PLUS 91 19"[/h5]

The only thing that makes me think that is the fact that the checklist file(pdf) has no reference to Boeing though it's allmost an exact replica. Now excuse me for my ignorance but i'm not very aware of how these matters should legally be arranged.(no hard feelings whatsoever anthony, just a small 'thing that came into my head needing more clarity')I'm really not awary of procedures to arrange such matters but i'm interested in finding out.Cheers

Hi Ted,what's wrong with a strictly legal interpretation? Distributing a copyrighted original work without permission from the copyright holder, or incorporating parts of a protected original work into one's own for distribution without seeking prior permission constitutes an infringement of copyright. An original work can be a compilation of copyrighted material, the copyright holder's rights to the compiled works or parts thereof are not affected.Simple as that.Cheers,Gosta.http://hifi.avsim.net/activesky/images/wxrebeta.jpg

>Both of these guys are now e-mailing me claiming that they>don't understand that what they did was wrong. Am I nuts or>is it simple...if you cut and paste someone else's work, then>you're stealing someone else's work. Right? If someone else>put time, thought, and effort into creating something, then>isn't it their own intellectual property whether it has a sign>on it saying "Intellectual Property" or not? Right? Am I>going nuts here?No, you're not going nuts. You're right: if you create something, it is your intellectual property. You don't need to indicate it. Unfortunately, though, with the Internet and computers in general making it so easy nowadays to cut and paste, people are slowly losing respect for the work of others and are passing parts of if not the entire amount of other people's work as their own.I'm a college professor--I teach English (academic reading and writing skills, mostly)--and I see this problem every single term. In academic circles, this type of theft is called plagiarism, and it has become one of the biggest problems we face as instructors.In any case, you were right to defend your rights. People have to learn somehow that copying without permission or copying without indicating that the words and ideas of others are being used is WRONG.Off my soapbox now ...Joel

Lenny, you sound like you are not aware that PMDG pays Boeing for the rights to do what they do:-) PMDG has been doing that for quite a long time, one of the reasons that they don't have any Airbus planes is that they could not come to terms with them for anything close to reasonable. I remember Rob commenting that they wanted $100,000 to allow access to the specs. As you can well imagine, PMDG would have to sell a heck of a lot of planes to recoup that $100,000 spent to get the Airbus specs.People swiping other peoples work should be shot. As I did lots of cut & paste work way back when I did a tutorial of the PMDG 777, I went to Rob first for his permission prior to putting it out. It is really just a matter of respect (forgetting the legal aspects involved which would fill many pages).Ray

Thanks everyone. I've been in e-mail debates with both of these guys today and I'm getting real tired of them defending what they did. Thanks for your support.Boyd Barker, Senior Command CaptainDirector of Special ProjectsKBOS Hub ManagerWestWind Airlineswww.flywestwind.com