I agree with it....we had something similar in Oz and it worked well...unfortunately we now have lobbyists who want a US-airspace style arrangement here where pilots of light aircraft dont need to talk to controllers and be put in the path of the heavies....we have already had a few close calls...

 

But people dont learn unless told they are doing it wrong!

From an airline point f view the European airspace system is best.

 

With things like CFMU and just generally keeping the little n big guys apart.... Safer for everyone

I agree with it....we had something similar in Oz and it worked well...unfortunately we now have lobbyists who want a US-airspace style arrangement here where pilots of light aircraft dont need to talk to controllers and be put in the path of the heavies....we have already had a few close calls...

 

But people dont learn unless told they are doing it wrong!

From an airline point f view the European airspace system is best.

 

With things like CFMU and just generally keeping the little n big guys apart.... Safer for everyone

 

I'm not trying to be offensive, but based on your locations, I don't think you're the best to be commenting on US Airspace. I see your concern, but if you haven't flown here, or know the whole process very well, your views may not be very accurate. There are measures in place to keep "light aircraft" away from larger aircraft, talking to controllers or not. They may not be as strong as other airspace systems, but they're also not unbearably restrictive.

 

The airspace around the Washington DC area is restrictive enough. I'd prefer not to have any other restrictions piled on my shoulders, thanks.

Excuse me! I have many many hours in US airspace. I went to flight school at the Lufthansa Flight Training Center... In AZ.

 

On my current fleet I fly into, ORD, JFK, DTW, LAX, BQN, MIA, DFW

 

I think I have some idea how things work over there!

Spoken like a true light aircraft pilot....location has nothing to do with it. The rules are the rules and are in written format. I have studied them, I dont need to get up in the sky to see how it works, and I can also see the stats.

 

A light aircraft pilot will be statistically speaking a leisure flier, a learner, business flier, air worker...in that order...the first two take the bulk of the light aircraft operators...correct?? now tell me why on earth would you not place safety restrictions on these people and provide them with more ATC guidance rather than less? You think you are already restrictive? welcome to commercail aviation...

Excuse me! I have many many hours in US airspace. I went to flight school at the Lufthansa Flight Training Center... In AZ.

 

On my current fleet I fly into, ORD, JFK, DTW, LAX, BQN, MIA, DFW

 

I think I have some idea how things work over there!

 

So, do you ever wonder why you went to a flight academy for a European carrier, that's based in the United States? Ease of operation means lower cost for the flight school to train. Too heavy regulation ruins the GA environment, which is by-and-large where your pilot pool comes from, so it's in the best interest of just about everyone that the pool remains relatively open. Part of that would be leaving it open. For what it's worth, the volume of training activities, mixed with the high number of airports and high terrain makes the Phoenix area notoriously difficult to operate in, and it is not characteristic of the other areas of the country.

 

And for the record, I didn't say you had no idea of how things operate. I said you do not have as intimate an idea of how things operate, and my reasoning (which I did not mention) is that it is because you do not operate here full time.

 

Spoken like a true light aircraft pilot....location has nothing to do with it. The rules are the rules and are in written format. I have studied them, I dont need to get up in the sky to see how it works, and I can also see the stats.

 

A light aircraft pilot will be statistically speaking a leisure flier, a learner, business flier, air worker...in that order...the first two take the bulk of the light aircraft operators...correct?? now tell me why on earth would you not place safety restrictions on these people and provide them with more ATC guidance rather than less? You think you are already restrictive? welcome to commercail aviation...

 

Okay, first, I already told you I wasn't attempting to be offensive, so I don't know why you felt it necessary to throw in the light aircraft pilot jab, but if that's how you're going to take it, I'm game.

 

Unless you have statistics speaking to the actual intent of general aviation pilots, I refuse to accept your order of things. As evidence, the GAMA released this study in 2010 specifically stating otherwise: "Over two-thirds of all the hours flown by general aviation aircraft are for business purposes." So, your characterization of light aircraft pilots as leisure fliers and students who could either care less or don't know what they're doing is false. As I'm sure you know, in order to be able to use an aircraft for business (with very few exceptions), you need to have a commercial certificate, and at that point, you generally have the training to not fall under the "stupid pilot" category you seem to be painting.

 

Despite that, yes, there are many pilots (especially those around 50-300 hours) who know enough to cause issues, but adding restrictions on airspace and giving controllers even more work is not how you fix that. That statement comes from being a pilot (the size doesn't matter), and having been a controller candidate. I fully believe that there is no reason to add on any more restrictions to the pilots that are already there. They're just as restrictive as they need to be for the flight operation.

 

Location actually has a lot to do with it. It really does. First and most obvious is the regulations that the pilots must adhere (which even you mentioned yourself), which are very much affected by location. To say that location has nothing to do with it is absolutely absurd. And you absolutely need at least a little time up in the air around here to fully understand what I'm saying. Book learning is one thing, and I give knowledge a lot of credit, but there's something to be said for the practical, have-actually-done-it side.

 

Since you're so fact and stats based, would you mind sharing with me your data, as I have with you?

Excuse me! I have many many hours in US airspace. I went to flight school at the Lufthansa Flight Training Center... In AZ.

 

On my current fleet I fly into, ORD, JFK, DTW, LAX, BQN, MIA, DFW

 

I think I have some idea how things work over there!

 

Sounds like you have quite a bit of experience in the US... at major hubs. You may have thousands of hours on IFR flightplans in controlled airspace, but I'm guessing that isn't the case when examining your experience in the US VFR (controlled/uncontrolled airspace) world. At the end of the day, any country can have as many rules and controllers as they like. There are no rails in the sky, so all the formalities are only as good as pilots who operated under them. The US has plenty of safety precautions without overburdening the system or the user. (Remember, we don't have user fees like Europe does either... which is why so many European pilots get their initial training in the US.)

 

In 5 years of flying aircraft with TCAS on board them, I've had 2 TCAS RAs... both in the same week. One in ATL Class B controlled airspace, the other over the Hudson river north of NYC descending into White Plains (KHPN) - again controlled airspace. Light, large, heavy, and super aircraft are all kept seperated reasonably well.

 

As for FAA/ATC action against pilots... any action they take is serious to the pilot. A "light" action is something like having a mark on your certificate for a year. From there it only gets worse... permanent marks (these change insurance rates), temporary and permanent certificate revocation, fines. Generally speaking, there's no "we just want to talk" action.

Since you're so fact and stats based, would you mind sharing with me your data, as I have with you?

 

No I don't have it anymore, it came from one of the many seminars I went to by the FAA, I am retired, I no longer have to tear my hair out because light aircraft turned left instead of right, because they didnt cancel SAR or because they entered controlled airspace without a clue as to what they were doing

Actually no Lufthansa pilot comes from GA they are either a cadet, or come from other airlines.

 

They go to AZ because of the weather, not because it is cheaper actually costs more... We have our own staff stationed there.

 

The primary flight trai ing is conducted at the facility we operate out there, again it is there for weather - we don't do anything under the FAA system it is a JAA (now EASA school)

 

I thought user fees were coming to the US now? I know your airlines are sure as hell pushing for them

No I don't have it anymore, it came from one of the many seminars I went to by the FAA, I am retired, I no longer have to tear my hair out because light aircraft turned left instead of right, because they didnt cancel SAR or because they entered controlled airspace without a clue as to what they were doing

 

So, despite your more restrictive airspace practice down there in OZ, where they seem to be required to talk to controllers, you still have issues. Doesn't sound like a requirement to be controlled, and restrictions on airspace are doing the trick. "No clue" is a training issue.

 

 

They go to AZ because of the weather, not because it is cheaper actually costs more... We have our own staff stationed there.

 

I highly doubt that. With all of the user fees in Germany, not to mention the cost of fuel, I'd like to see your numbers. Dollar for dollar, you're going to see higher costs in the EU. You can't rightly add in the cost of housing staff here because you'd have to house them over there anyway (or pay them salary to house themselves).

 

The weather issue is definitely something I agree with. The Phoenix area is devoid of weather 90% of the time.

 

The primary flight trai ing is conducted at the facility we operate out there, again it is there for weather - we don't do anything under the FAA system it is a JAA (now EASA school)

 

You most assuredly operate under the FAA system. You may follow JAA/EASA rules, procedures and outlines, but you're definitely operating in an FAA environment. You also lived through the apparently lacking and lawless system to tell about it, too.

 

I thought user fees were coming to the US now? I know your airlines are sure as hell pushing for them

 

It's been on and off the boards, but it keeps getting defeated, thankfully. It's a dreadful proposition and I cannot believe we'd ever use any other country having implemented the nonsense as an example. If anything, I'd argue that the other countries having implemented them would better be used as an example on why not to implement the fees.

 

I can guarantee you that the airlines (to include those international who send pilots here) will be begging to have it removed when they see how bad it slams the flight schools who provide them pilots. Congress already shot the whole lot of us in the foot with the random increase in hours for "safety's" sake. Adding in yet another burden to the system will only make that worse.

No we did not operate under the FAA system, we conducted no FAA tests or got any FAA certificates.

 

Yes we pay a salary in Germany, but in Germany we don't pay for housing and expenses. That is what they pay for the staff who are working there (seconded from LH)

 

I know for a fact it is more expensive, because they are now doing more of it in Europe to cut back on some of the cost.

 

 

No we did not operate under the FAA system, we conducted no FAA tests or got any FAA certificates.

 

Correct, the standards you met, licenses obtained and all that were JAA, but if you busted airspace, who would have been breathing down your neck? Not the JAA...

 

That was my point. You were being governed by the JAA in that your training met JAA requirements, but the flights were conducted in an FAA environment. The controllers were FAA controllers. The pilots around you were likely certified in the FAA environment.

I fail to see your point?

 

My point was I'm going to bet I have more hours in US airspace and as such able to pass comment on the issues of GA and commercial traffic being too close together.

 

Oh and correcting your suggestion that European pilots come from ga, they don't (that is a US thing)

I fail to see your point?

 

Earlier, you said "The primary flight trai ing is conducted at the facility we operate out there, again it is there for weather - we don't do anything under the FAA system it is a JAA (now EASA school).

I was simply addressing that statement.

 

My point was I'm going to bet I have more hours in US airspace and as such able to pass comment on the issues of GA and commercial traffic being too close together.

 

And that's my point. If you still think commercial traffic and GA are too close together, you clearly don't have enough time over here to see that they really aren't.

 

Oh and correcting your suggestion that European pilots come from ga, they don't (that is a US thing)

 

I never stressed that it was otherwise outside of the US, though I didn't exactly specify that I was referencing the US (which is my fault). Where do they come from, if not GA? Ab-initio training programs, which are likely conducted under a regulatory environment similar to our Part 91/141?

Our cadet pilot programs are like nothing you have in the US, intact with the FAA changing the rules in the US you may start to see them?

 

But within LH it is where a candidate is select from scratch, and trained from day 1 to be a LH pilot. That's I stated part of that is conducted in AZ due to the weather for the primary training, then after returning to Germany training is conducted in a Citation to get the candidate ready for jet operations, then into the simulator for type conversion and then finally line training.

 

After 1000 hours jet the first officer may apply to go to Lufthansa Cargo (MD11 has a 1000 hour jet requirement) you progress from FO to SFO then to Captain at the moment between 10-15 years for Command.

 

The washout rate to get into training from training is high, remember the company are paying for this - it is not a pay to fly scheme so the size of your wallet is most defiantly not the factor in deciding weather you pass or fail.

 

Step one to getting into LH is the DLR a 4 day process that all pilots have passed within the group no matter if they were a cadet or had several 1000 hours in another airline they all start from the same point.

 

In short it is nothing like the part 141 system, it is a custom program approved by the authority.