And invalidate his GCAA (not FAA) approved runway analysis?

 

I guess so. If it isn't FAA approved, it doesn't fly in the US.

 

I agree, those waivers 91.117(a) are very few...nas in the FAA have not issued many long standing ones they are mainly used for airshows.

 

I still don't think you are understanding. The company specifications are considered a waiver. So every company that has heavies operating in the US, and tells it's pilots to fly above 250 kias below 10000 MSL is operating on one of those waivers. Lufthansa has one of those waivers. Delta, United, Fedex, UPS, American, etc. all have that waiver for their heavies because they are operating under FAA approved proceedures.

DHA,Read it again. It says if required/recommended by AFM. It further says, IF THE LISTED AIRSPEED IS A RANGE then fly the slowest speed based on weight/configurations. For example, the KC-10/DC-10 only list one min maneuver speed for a given weight for take-off. That speed is a clean speed. FR and SR are clean up speeds that guarantees your obstacle performance. Now arrival/approach speeds are all min maneuver speeds that are based on weight and configuration. These speeds are given for clean, 0/EXT, 15/EXT, and the aircrafts maneuvering flaps 22/EXT. This is a range. So on arrival, i can't blow off the 250, I am forced to configure and fly the slowest speed. In both jets, we never flew faster than 250 on arrival. unless I had a slat or flap problem, I would configure and slow down during an emergency just to give myself more time to work issues. If its a fuselage fire, then all bets are off.

Carter,

 

The FAA confirmed to me the waiver is a specific letter not the company specification or the AFM but an actual letter as issued to the military.

Carter,

 

The FAA confirmed to me the waiver is a specific letter not the company specification or the AFM but an actual letter as issued to the military.

 

Are you sure you're not just in contact with an intern or secretary?

 

The way airline op specs work in the US is that whatever is in the FAA approved op spec becomes the company's version of the regs. As an example, our op specs allow us to use reduced weather minima criteria for alternate airports. According to the general regs what we are doing is not legal, but because the FAA approved our proceedure for minimum weather at an alternate airport we are allowed to use it. Same thing with the 250 kias below 10,000 rule. If Delta's manual for the 747 says clean up and hold min safe speed in the clean configuration even if it's greater than 250 kias, and the FAA approved that manual, then Delta can do it.

Carter,

 

I'm afraid the FAA don't agree with your interpretation. I have been speaking with an operations inspector and the Legal Council (the latter will be responding to my question in writing)

 

A waiver to 91.117 is an actual letter addressing those points.. Here is an example as issued to the DOD.

 

Otherwise 91.117(d) refers to the minimum safe speed not minimum clean speed.

 

91.117(a) requires a specific letter of authorization covering the specific FAR

 

http://www.usaasa.tradoc.army.mil/docs/br_Airspace/FAR_Exemptions/Exemp5100B.pdf

I'm afraid they do. What can your provide me (not hearsay evidence) that can prove otherwise?

 

Hearsay evidence, by the way, is what every single argument of yours relies on: this document you can't see, that person I won't mention or quote directly, and so on.

On the other hand, we're putting quoted FAA documents out there, that's hard evidence.

 

The "believe me" tactic isn't working.

I'm not trying to win the argument on hearsay. I will post the letter I receive from the FAA legal council just as soon as they send it.

 

In the meantime can you provide me a document that explains the FAA define minimum safe speed to mean minimum safe speed?

 

As so far the only document that has come to light from the FAA regarding my question above is that minimum safe speed.. Is exactly that the minimum SAFE speed, and you can adjust your speed by configuration.

 

This is referenced both in the letter sent to Continental Airlines regarding FAR 91.117(d) despite what you say this letter does have significant relevance because it provides a definition to minimum safe speed (where no other definition exists)

 

Then there is the extract from the USAF manual which again points out - it is correct to use configuration to adjust the speed to the minimum possible to comply with FAR 91.117.

 

Then if you go on the FAA fssims page it explains the procedure for obtaining a waiver or authorization under FAR 91.117(a) this is a special letter not to be confused with Operations Specifications. This latter point was confirmed when I spoke to the Operations Inspection at NY IFSDO.

 

Again.. Show me where the FAA define the minimum safe speed to mean the minimum safe speed clean configuration.

Kyle,

 

Yes your putting FAA documents on here... But then YOU are interpreting them, when to date the only interpretation I can find regarding minimum safe speed (the point in question) does not support your argument.

 

At the very least this shows the regulation is not clear, if you have bothered to have a look on google you will see 100's of posts from professional pilots asking the same thing.

 

Every other country had made the matter simple because they say "maximum speed below 10'000 250'KIAS or minimum clean speed" they also make it simple by allowing ATC to waive the restriction for all types.

 

Other US pilots... If you google.. Are also questioning the term Administrator. In our context it actually refers to the Flight Standards. However for other FAR's ATC have been deemed to of been granted such approval to act as the Administrator.

 

Again it is just not good practice to use the same term in two ways, it leads to grey areas.

Two relevant FARs showing that a company's OpSpec determines whether the pilots of that company have been authorized to bust 250 below 10,000:

 

FAR 119.49 Contents of operations specifications.

a - Each certificate holder conducting domestic, flag, or commuter operations must obtain operations specifications containing all of the following:

12 - Any authorized deviation and exemption granted from any requirement of this chapter.

 

FAR 121.135 Manual contents.

a - Each manual required by 121.133 must -

4 - Not be contrary to any applicable Federal regulation and, in the case of a flag or supplemental operation, any applicable foreign regulation, or the certificate holder's operations specifications or operating certificate.

 

So ultimately, the OpSpecs MUST contains the waiver (in some form), and the OpSpec CAN'T go against any reg. Therefore, if it appears in the company manuals (approved by the FAA), it is permissable for the pilots of that company.

One last thing to add. I'm going back to section D of 91.117. I spoke with the my local FAA guy in B'more. The FAA defines minimum safe speed as "The minimum speed at which an aircraft may be operated without affecting its maneuvering ability. So back to the above 250 situation. Part 25(transport category) governs what a FAA certified transport aircraft has to be able to meet at a minimum. As we all know, this is what your aircraft performance must achieve. As far as configuration goes, part 25 defines the takeoff profile. Any aircraft that is certified by the FAA, will follow this takeoff flight path profile. This profile is based on losing a engine at V1, V2 at 35ft by departure end, no configuration or power changes prior to 400ft except gear retraction, and at 1500ft transition from takeoff to en route configuration and accel to VFTO.. As stated, by the FAA profile, you will clean the aircraft up. This profile is what your obstacle/min climb gradient is based on. If you don't follow this profile, you risk smacking the mountains. This profile exists in all 7 different type of transport category aircraft that I've flown. Aircraft world wide fly this profile. Only exception is that JAA feels you will only reach 15ft on a wet or contaminated runway. FAA says you will be at 35ft regardless. As I stated before, FAA will not touch contaminated runway data. Part 25 also states that a aircraft at v2 must be capable of 30 degrees of bank. It also states that a aircraft with all engines operating, V2 + xx , must be capable of 40 degrees bank. O, and yes a aircraft at en-route speed must be capable of 40 degrees of bank. So looking at the definition of minimum safe speed, your minimum maneuver speed is the speed that gives you up to 40 degrees bank protection. This speed is the speed that maneuvering ability is NOT affected.

 

So in the case of being too heavy for 250. By following the FAA takeoff profile, you will be in a clean configuration after takeoff. All engine or engine out, you will fly this profile. This is why you will not find a range of min maneuver speeds at different configurations in the takeoff portion of your performance manual. Take a look in your manual your self. In essence, a heavy aircraft will fall into part D of 91.117. This is the reason I have NEVER been questioned in 10 years exceeding 250 while heavy. Now arrival is a different story. It also explains why in 16 years of flying, that I have never heard a heavy request higher or notify a controller that he is higher than 250. By their own regulations, the FAA will put you into this situation. This is surely the reason part D exists.

 

By the way, Carter, what type do you fly? Are you still in Acworth? I was born and raised in Atlanta. I've done a lot of fishing near Actworth.

Rick,

 

CRJ-700/900. Not bumping around in the big toys yet. Of course, if I could get paid a fair wage to fly a recip, I'd probably go back to doing that. Fewer headaches. Yeah Allatoona's got some nice fishing spots. I was born/rised around Marietta/Kennesaw.

 

Weirdly, we clean up at 1000' AFE instead of 1500'.

Weirdly, we clean up at 1000' AFE instead of 1500'.

Actually you can based on the manufacturers certification. In the DC10, the manufacturers min accel is 800ft(all engine) and 400ft(engine out) as long as you were clear of obstacles. If there are obstacles, you had to climb to obstacle height up to 1500ft. If the obstacle was higher than 1500ft, the performance data accounted for leveling at 1500ft drive towards the obstacle and clean up then climb.

 

http://

 

 

Finally i was able to post the pics from my performance manual. This the DC-10-30. I had to get creative.