Tell me what is it advocating?If you post in these forums you need to accept that not everyone will agree with you and not revert to personal attacks on those who don't.

So you want the clear tenor getting repeated? Sure, no problem.Don't spoil valid customers with heavy protection measures which are useless against pirates and don't increase sales or "crack times", use basic ones and focus on the customers, not on the pirates.'Another side tenor may be 'stay open minded and always willing to learn.' One thing to learn is that fair treated customers won't abandon you and will fight for you when it comes to piracy.Last one is a personal one while the first thing was mentioned by quite some people now and never included 'everything free, now!' or something.Didn't want to attack you personally. As you see, I had two possibilities mentioned. First, he doesn't understand. Second, he intentionally doesn't want to understand.First thing can happen, second one shouldn't but does.Hoping it helps.

Oh dear. I think we at danger of veering off-course again. We are using abstracts that don't translate at all to the question in hand.My bank cannot "trust" me; it is not a person. Banks do not leave money on display because that would be stupid, and counter-productive to their real business, which is: making more money. Banks are a bad example because they are in the very rare position of being able to rip us off; have us not be able to do anything about it (becuase most of them are bad, and there is no real customer choice) and still have to "use" their product. Banks do not even trust each other, and look where all that got us. Paradigm shift needed there too but too many vested interests.We are talking about IP. Yes I know, Jim that ripping off your software is, utimately, a "lost sale", and a "lost sale" ultimately translates into less money for the devs and financials of any given company that's why I ackowledge your right to keep protecting that IP in the very best way you have been trained. It's your job; I wouldn't expect anything less, and I would be proud to have you defending my IP if you worked for me, but again, you are missing the point. (and I do not know Wolfgang, he seems like a likeable bloke from the few witty posts he's laid here, but he's not coming to me for a job, and again that's a bad example because youd be hard-pressed to find anyone in my industry who doesn't come across cracked softs every day so we tend not to use that as a character reference ) I am not saying stop doing it; I am saying you can't win. Keep at it, but know that you will, ultimately, fail. It is also impossible to quantify: If your software is bad I will not buy it. If your software has intrusive and over-complicated anti-install-too-many-times-protection I will not buy it. That is my right. Those are also "lost sales". I do not, not buy it because I am going to try to give it away, because if I was in that business I would buy it and crack it; I do not buy it because I, Like Jose and CoolIP believe that we are already fullfilling our side of any "contract of use/sale" buy paying for the software in the first place and resent having to "reactivate" software we have bought. It's a bit like iTunes, which, funnily enough goes like this: if you lose your iTunes library it's gone. Bye. Apple may, in their god-like way grant you a re-download, but they may tell you to go hike. Huh? How can they do that? I paid for all that music. They have to; it's the deal they struck with....The Music Industry! However, if you lose all of your apps, you can just download them as many times as you likem and, crucially, to whatever PC/MAC is logged in to your iTunes account. With no limit! I can have 3 iPhones/Ipads, etc and put any combo of my apps and music on any of those devices. Why? That is how software will be sold/licensed in the future. Apple decided that, not the big boys. Apple can do this because they have locked the platform (erm..) You guys cannot guarantee peoples honesty nor lock the platform, so you design over-weening "anti-theft" systems that are a waste of money and time. Anyway, what is a "lost sale"? If I diss a peice of legitamately obtained software to one of my mates and he doesn't buy it, is that a "lost sale"? Am I as guilty as a person who does not actively "pirate" software, but is a user who decides to "try" a particular soft that he's found wherever, because he's wary of handing over fufty quid for a game that might be rubbish, and then not buy it because it is rubbish? Would you rather take his money and have him find out, the hard way, that you are as "dishonest" as him? There are many levels to this, as well. As CoolIP keeps saying "life is not black and white".I would say the software publisher (distinct from dev here) is guilty of obtaining money by deception in some cases of game release. If you had shelled out £50 on Silent Hunter V to find the steaming pile of fetid dogmess that appeared after the stupid bloody UBI online activation and having to be online all the time you use it, and oh, look..it's deleted all my savegames becuase my internet connection went down, and then you saw "pirates" on BBS's dissing this game and saying do not buy it, you'd be pi**ed too. UBI did not release a demo of this game because they knew it stank. This goes on all the time. Who's guilty there if my mate (who's running a pirated copy) tells me not to buy it coz it's crap? Another "lost sale".And I'm not talking about removing anti"theft" measures because by its very nature software isn't like other products. See above. Carry on putting it there. It's your job. But the cracks appear (usually very quickly) and you've lost another sale from a legitimate customer (whether or not you agree with his definition of what constitutes a pain the the a** when re-activating)And again, Jose and CoolIP (and all other "company B" peeps) are not objecting to un-intrusive one-time internet-based serial-numbered and even crypto-keyed fer heavenssake. It is the over-bearing protection that does not work that we are objecting to. People keep missing this point. You challenge the legal customers while the "pirates" use the software with relative impunity (when was the last time, bar MP3's that you heard of anyone being prosecuted for violation of EULA?)You guys must be really clever. I mean that; copy prot is at the leading-edge of computing tech now: military-grade crypto-keyed licence servers and all (all cracked, too :( ). Imagine using your talents to create better, cheaper software that more people like and buy (I'm not suggesting that any of your softs are anything other than excellent btw; I'm speaking empirically) And yes, I know that "if people keep ripping off software we cannot afford to make it better" but there are plenty of very good, viable companies who have embraced the fact that by and large most people are honest and do exactly that. I don't agree with the analysis stated earlier by many of the devs that basically most people are dishonest. I'm sorry, I just don't see it that way.Instead of arguing with Jose about the legitimacy or otherwise of his decision and the efficacy of your "anti-theft" measures, why not try to get his custom back? I don't know how! I don't have any answers. There are many potential models which will be tried and fail, but the model we currently use, much like the war on drugs, has failed, I would say.

In all fairness, I have only come in contact with a handful of developers who feel that they MUST get their customers to activate and limit the amount of times that the software is activated.The majority of developers I buy from I really appreciate the way they treat their customers and it's my pleasure to be an ambassador for their software.There are two rules I've always tried to remember when it comes to dealing with legitimate customers:RULE #1: The customer is always right.RULE #2: If you think the customer is wrong, look at rule #1 again.It's so basic, and often so misunderstood. I'll repeat this one more time. This is a very small community of caring simmers who want the developers to succeed. I honestly believe that most customers are doing the right thing and not helping the cause we all simply abhor.

Words to print there, DJ Jose.You point it out, there are more than a few companies around, doing it right, the concern therefore focuses on the remaining ones and their policies and attitudes.Nobody is speaking of free products' and 'no protection', but everybody speaks about the customer focus, without a mistrust amount to start with.(Still) Wondering about the tenor of this thread? Read the above words.

Totally agree. I especially like rule #2 :( And Wolfgang, I wasn't suggesting you had cracked any of your software, just overstepped your EULA. Just to clarify that =)And again: no, I am not suggesting that everything is free/unprotected and all will be right in the world. It's a bit of a straw-man argument that, isn't it? A bit of over-heavy copy-protected reductionism going on there I'd say. I'll say it again: No, I don't think everything should be free/unprotected. Read my post, please before coming back with the same, glib comments. I'm trying, as Jose and CoolIP were doing, to inject a bit of reality, customer experience and perhaps offer some diverse conversation on what is, clearly a touchy subject for a few round here, that's all. :(

mgh,Trust everyone.Don't set limits.Don't attempt to protect your property from theft.If you do this, you will never go out of business, you will be richer than you ever thought you would be, you will have no cares in the world, and life will be perfect.

Gentlemen, please realize that you are being played like a piano by those who regard themselves as your intillectual superiors.:( The arrogant attitudes revealed in their posts reveal a complete lack of human caring about your dilema while postiting a shallow and unrealistic "solution" under the pretense of desiring to help you "understand their solution".:( At best this thread seems to have provided those individuals a few moments (15 Minutes?) of attention.:( At worst it has become yet another exercise in futility for those who wish that others would cease to practice theft in all its myriad forms.B)

Gentlemen, please realize that you are being played like a piano by those who regard themselves as your intillectual superiors.:( The arrogant attitudes revealed in their posts reveal a complete lack of human caring about your dilema while postiting a shallow and unrealistic "solution" under the pretense of desiring to help you "understand their solution".B) At best this thread seems to have provided those individuals a few moments (15 Minutes?) of attention.:( At worst it has become yet another exercise in futility for those who wish that others would cease to practice theft in all its myriad forms.B)

Thumbsup for this try, Sir.A nice example for the amount of despair driving a "confident" guy around his need to look at .. himself. I wasn't really sure about your motives and attitudes before, now I am. Thank you, honestly. :( I'm still a bit surprised now since this 'haha, it was all a joke' approach is just so .. I don't know, it may be an offensive word I'm thinking about.Is there more to come from you as 'I'm so offended, CoolP' or this joke thing then? I hope not, I truly hope this. For the sake of your image and the one of your company."First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win."Seems like your "opponents" (I could bet you see them like this, not as valid discussion members) are now experiencing the very despaired attempt of the highlighted step from your side.N400QW, nobody of us guys is or was fighting you, ever realized? We are just stressing the need for you to think about e. g. your attitude towards honest customers and the world, which isn't painted black at all. I did express my honest compassion before, didn't I?I still can't believe you are trying this joke thing, sorry. So much despair? Wow.I'm puzzled now. Maybe the others guys remained clearer though. Impressive, just unbelievable impressive and shocking.I will bookmark or print out this page. Still can't believe it how a somehow clever guy enjoys to build walls and run into him. When others try to show him some of those, he starts to make jokes about them and is starting up for the next wall hit, in full confidence and believe that he's the one to be followed.

Gentlemen, please realize that you are being played like a piano by those who regard themselves as your intillectual superiors.:( The arrogant attitudes revealed in their posts reveal a complete lack of human caring about your dilema while postiting a shallow and unrealistic "solution" under the pretense of desiring to help you "understand their solution".:( At best this thread seems to have provided those individuals a few moments (15 Minutes?) of attention.:( At worst it has become yet another exercise in futility for those who wish that others would cease to practice theft in all its myriad forms.B)

I must be real famous now!

But while we're on it (you've got me started now) here's another analogy:I own lots of CD's (much prefer them to MP3's) and lots and lots and lots of vinyl. All of which I own. They belong to me; I bought them with my hard earned cash. I can play any of that music on any of the many devices around my house that will allow me to do so, format permitting. I can even take my CD's and play them in my car! Imagine my delight! I can even, if I dare, take my CD's and vinyl and, Like DJJose, go and play them at another location, with or without others present, and, music license permitting of course, I can play them in public! I can do this as many times as I like, and on as many diverse devices as I like for as long as I like. If I change my CD player or decks I can still play my music on my new gear. How can this be? What's missing from this picture? I don't have to contact the record label/producer/distributor every 3, 6, 9 or whatever plays. Why not? Because everyone would laugh at both me for being such a fool as to have bought into such a restrictive system, and the record companies for being such spoilsports. The record companies have assigned to me a trust. That I will not, in the course of my daily life copy my music and distribute it to my mates. I have not abused that trust. Why not? because that's the way I roll. But, and it is a very big but: we live in the digital age (man). Kids expect it all to be at their fingertips. This attitude permeates society (the customer if I remember rightly) and thus the age of easy-acquisition has arrived. People don't even in lots of cases, even know they're "stealing". Why? because people are stupid in lots of cases, but because the sheer "availability" of stuff these days is ubiquitous.The answer? Cost. Simple. Make it free/cheap and sell the support. make it free/cheap and sell the right to create a forum account to actually get support, talk about, ###### about the product. make it free/cheap but limited and sell "upgrades" for little extra cost, again, I don't know, but not everybody can afford £50 a game, or 25 payware A/C at c. £15-20 a pop (and before anyone jumps on that, again, no I don't think that making copies of games or cracking copy prot is an answer to not having any money - just putting that out there before someone uses that as another "answer" to this discussion)Another real-world music-based example (I like real examples) I use a bit of music software called Logic Pro. It rocks bells. It knocks Cubase into a cocked hat (lost sale, Steinberg, make your softs better) It was made by a company called Emagic. It came in Mac and PC versions. You could find cracked PC versions, but until Apple bought Emagic, canned the PC version and made us PC users buy Macs you couldn't find it cracked for Mac. "we canned the PC version because only cracked versions were being used" apart from being utter rubbish and immediately disenfranchising about 60000 customers, their thinking was ultimately flawed, as very soon, cracked Apple versions started to appear. This software was expensive. It was £750 + VAT for version 7 Pro. I got it on edu purchase through a Uni mate (bad me) but it was cracked and all over the place. What did Apple do? They dropped its price to £200. That is cheap for this software, beleive me. It's like paying 25p for a PMDG product. Everyone bought it. It is still used cracked, of course, but they realised, as are Adobe, that you can't win. You have to start treating the "pirates" as potential customers.

"Gentlemen, please realize that you are being played like a piano by those who regard themselves as your intillectual superiors.:( The arrogant attitudes revealed in their posts reveal a complete lack of human caring about your dilema while postiting a shallow and unrealistic "solution" under the pretense of desiring to help you "understand their solution".:( At best this thread seems to have provided those individuals a few moments (15 Minutes?) of attention.:( At worst it has become yet another exercise in futility for those who wish that others would cease to practice theft in all its myriad forms.B)"Are you serious? You can reduce reasoned discussion to active support of copyright infringment, and insult people in the process just like that? can you not read? OMG. I am truly shocked (and a teeny bit offended that you feel I am trying to be intellectually superior to anyone - just trying to get involved, you know, as a member of the PAYING community). Talk about persecution complex. Calm down dude. You're obviously not reading any of it, as you have just picked out enough to make such a bald and bizzarre statement

I could think that some of the readers are biting their tongue now since N400QW tried this joking-approach thing.They can't post here in the name of other devs or in those of any official viewpoint since the Eaglesoft guys and Jim are vital parts of the Avsim forums (and surely, without a doubt, achieved great things there, no questioning there). So posting a 'oh my god, did you really try to turn the tables with that joke thing now!?!' could be the worst thing to happen for them.So I appreciate the silence and, honestly, understand the need for it.I wasn't up to destroy a more or less good image here but this last attempt to drive a valid discussion down the drain is very close to the worst thing that actually could happen to a company owner's image, that's for sure.So, maybe some of you other fellows with the still open mind agree that this thread has to end soon unless getting in to more ugly regimes. I don't want to be responsible for a company to take harm by showing what her owner really is thinking about his surrounding, his customers and how he is trying to run down valid discussions with despair-driven tricks.That joke thing had one target, to get out of the discussion soon and I will, from my side, allow it to happen since the damage on that ignorant side of the posters already seems to be huge, clearly shown by the amount of despair.It also aimed for running the friendly guys around into some emotional regimes, to trigger a closure. Does anybody doubt that target when looking at the other posts here from N400QW?Did he gave us more than 'I know it all, you know nothing' statements with the lack of facts or even an explained fact basis without showing a pure cliché-based view?

I have a copy of VDJ. This is a $300 software for DJs who want to utilize their creative powers at a live event. I bought it years ago for about $100. I've received several free upgrades and I'm even allowed to install it on my backup laptop. Plus, I use my email address and code to install. I've never had to contact the VDJ team because I needed an activation.That's for a $300 software for DJs. They have a customer for life.

Quad,A serious question: If Windows 7 was $5 dollars a copy and could be installed multiple times, on multiple machines, would sales of Win 7 increase or decrease, IN YOUR OPINION?And with my bank question I should have asked if the bank tellers trust you, or maybe ask if your local hardware store or food store trusts you. It's the fact that all of those places have security set up to protect their businesses. So do you equate the level of protection presented to the level of trust they have in you? Example: No protection = the highest amount of trust High Protection = the lowest amount of trust

I'm sorry, I can't seem to quote..either I'm thick or it's not working :( but again, why has this been reduced to people who do not share the bleak, criminal infested outlook of certain devs who've posted here suddenly supporting "pirated" software? Did I miss something?This is not a dev vs the world thing, either. Of course I sympathise with the plight of a dev who has their hard work pasted all over the place. How couold any honest person not feel gutted for that dev. That's why we buy software. Duh.I am a musician. I would hate to find my new album all over the Internet before it was even released (well, actually I as a musician today wouldn't be seeing any of that money for a while so that's another bad example; it's the publishers who lose there, not the artists; they're still paying back their advance) so I can relate. In fact, my music is both on torrent and played on Last.FM (without my permission - another story for another time) so I know EXACTLY how they feel. I would also hazrd a guess that both Jose and CoolIP own an Eaglsoft product?

Quad,A serious question: If Windows 7 was $5 dollars a copy and could be installed multiple times, on multiple machines, would sales of Win 7 increase or decrease, IN YOUR OPINION?

Oh, please, Jim. You are up to go for your seventh or so example or fictitious thing now for showing .. I don't know what you like to show us.Maybe that you don't get it even at the seventh attempt of a thing because all attempts so far shared the very same one wrong nature/assumption? Who could tell?So lets remain silent about this, there's some 'logical activation limit' you've reached there. Just kidding, you can post such things as long as and often as you like.The impression will always be dependant from the reader's mind, that's for sure and this may also be your largest handicap there, the clear view of the readers against the other one of the author.

I would also hazrd a guess that both Jose and CoolIP own an Eaglsoft product?

True here. Was very confident about the product itself so far. Policy things were only a small annoyance so far and the activation thing handles well (while I still question and even complain about the general need for it. Remember? That thing to talk about stuff in general, mentioned numerous times in this thread. Enjoy reading!).Good handling of bad things .. the devs seem to think that those bad things then equal purely good ones. You just have to make sure that all people use them, by force, I guess. :rolleyes:I think that the next statement therefore targets this wrong thinking of them to be 'so clear and common sense'. The world is so easy, isn't it?Ah, and now the world is so funny too, not to forget (a masterpiece of rhetoric there, N400QW, no doubt).