I saw in one of the other forums that the NDA has been lifted for beta testers. So, if any beta testers are reading this, it sure would be nice to hear how the R22 "is". I'm crossing my fingers that the flight dynamics have been improved - e.g. that pedal input would be *required* on liftoff, that the autorotative modeling is better, etc.Thanks,Dave Blevins

Dave,Some good news and some bad news with regards to the new helicopter. The good news, of course, is that we have the R22 and with it the ability to model other piston helicopters. Governor and correlator systems of the R22 are included. However their accurate functionality is in question.Also the R22's visual model is GREAT.Flight model: I haven't done more than initial flight testing, but the fun factor of hovering this helicopter is one of the highest of any FS helicopter.Pedal movement is not really required. In a zero wind, neutral pedal lift off, the helicopter only begins to yaw left very slowly.Normal flight maneuvers are pretty much accurate, except for a few details.One very big problem, in my opinion, is autorotation performance. With the gold version I have, I was unable to simulate anything close to a real autorotation. RPM drops instantly and and cannot be recovered even with a flare. And if you can get the RPM to stay in the green, for some reason the helicopter starts to descend uncontrollably almost straight into the ground. Provided documentation covers the procedures for practice autorotations, so I would assume they would be modeled but not so far as I've been able to figure out.Hovering autorotations are not accurate, no pedal movement required and again, inaccurate modeling of rotor RPM.All I can say about the governor and correlator is that they are not modeled like the real R22.Look for more in depth information on the R22 in AVSIM's upcoming FS2004 review. For now, enjoy FS2004.Regards,James WebbLibrary Manager/Staff ReviewerAVSIM! Online

James -that is exactly the kind of feedback that I was looking for - thanks. I guess I'd rather have "the bad news" now rather than wait for the sim and be disappointed on First Flight.cheers,dB.

James, one thing about the R22 autorotation. Try disconecting the rotor clutch before attempting the autorotation. I talked to a Microsoft beta tester/flight simmer and he said that was the only way he could survive the autorotation. Robert Williamson

>Pedal movement is not really required. In a zero wind,>neutral pedal lift off, the helicopter only begins to yaw>left very slowly.Whow!!! What a realism really!!! Great sim! Does it even require that the engine is working for takeoff??? That would add aditional realism, beyond how much realistic it already gets...;-)No pun intended, but excuse me - this is, to say the least, ridiculous!!!Have you ever flown a real R22 or R44? I guess the answer is ** NO **

Dear Sir:If I may quote myself, "I haven't done more than initial flight testing" I then ask you what kind of creditability I would maintain if I started up FS2004, flew for 2 minutes and came back here and blasted Microsoft for all of their apparent failures? After complete testing I will do my best to give you an opinion of the R22.It seems that you wanted me to be critical of Microsoft for their lack of tail rotor realism. This fourm is not the place, at least for me, to do that. I was simply providing an answer to a question.To answer your question, yes, I do fly the R22 and fly it regularly. In fact, I'll be going up this afteroon. I would be happy to fax you log book pages w/ signoffs from various instructors.Regards,James WebbLibrary Manager/Staff ReviewerAVSIM! Online

James, I am interested in being faxed these documents because I enjoy receiving faxes! Why is it that these heated debates always follow you around the forums? Have a good one...

>Have you ever flown a real R22 or R44? I guess the answer is>** NO **You, sir, need to learn some manners, and also not presuppose that you know the gentleman's experience level. Like my mom used to say, if you don't have anything nice to post, don't post anything at all.Dave Blevins

Howdy:actually, our expert from Portugal posted the very same message in three different forums here at avsim; poor man must have some serious issues with MS, and I'm not talking helicopters ;-( Cheers, Holger

Ok,1) I admit I was rude in the way I put things... specially considering Mr James was just trying to answer some question;2) Yes, I hate the way MS deals with their clients.... specially MSFS users...3) Yes I posted at two different forums (the third one where I did post, not the same message, was x-plane.org, not here at AVSIM...4) Mr. James, from your real world experience, which I would be the last to doubt about, and after you spend a little more time with fs2004's R22, please let me know:- do you really think that the FS R22 behaves realisticaly in as far as torque/translational lift/etc goes... ?- have you figured out why you weren't able to autorotate?And... sorry for the ruddnes, it was far from being my intention to be rude at you... The same I can't say about MS, of course....Ah! And just as I promissed at that other forum, I will freeze my comments until fs2004 arrives to portuguese stores, and I get my copy and try it myself...

BTW: The *** expert *** would like to thank you for the link to HoverControl you kindly provided at that other forum Holger...Ah! And yes, you're right about that MS stuff... I could never forgive them not going ahead with my idea of "Microsoft Sex Simulator" - As real as it gets!!!!

Ok, time for me to jump in at this point.How about we stop for a min, look at what has been said and take a min to reflect. Hasty words have been said, and I think some of them without much thought.Lets keep thinks civil. Since the founding of this forum well over a year ago, i dont think i have ever had to put on my "moderator" head till now. Moderator head is now off and i really dont want to put it back on within this forum.RgdsAidihttp://www.avsim.com/vfr_center/avsim_sig.jpg

HelloAfter tweaking the aircraft.cfg I've got the robinson to fly really nice.[ torque_scalar = 20.0][ cyclic_roll_control_scalar = 4.3 ][ cyclic_pitch_control_scalar = 3.4 ][ pedal_control_scalar = 1.4 ]Now the anti_torque issue is "solved" with the higher torque setting.At least it is much, much better./Mavwin

Yep!After browsing accross HoverControl's message board, I found hints of a complete rework of the helicopter FM in fs2004, with additional parameters that can be set directly on the CFGs.I'll hold my comments until I get my hands on it... Anyway, it's been true almost since fs95 that MS tends to ship poor flight models for their default aircraft...

>Flight model: I haven't done more than initial flight testing,>but the fun factor of hovering this helicopter is one of the>highest of any FS helicopter.>Pedal movement is not really required. In a zero wind, neutral>pedal lift off, the helicopter only begins to yaw left very>slowly.>Normal flight maneuvers are pretty much accurate, except for a>few details.>Auto-rotation & immediate anti-torque aside.......... for the moment.I would also tend to agree about the fun factor of hovering. For day's now, I've shifted back and forth between the FS2004 R-22 and X-Planes R-22 in versions 6.70 & the 7.00 beta. I've also read many post's, where the writers prefer the X-Plane version.But here is my problem. In X-Plane, I can't seem to get a "feel" of any mass, weight, or dampening. It's as though I'm watching a video screen jump around with my control imputs. It's always been that way with X-Plane. Large aircraft "feel" like smaller ones; or should I say lack of feel. A few years back, FSD (Steve Small) released a Pilatus Porter for FS2K that really imparted a sense of STOL characteristics to the P/C flight sim. You could literally feel the lift & drag within your controls. This is what I feel when hovering, or transitioning from forward flight to hovering with the FS2004 Robinson R-22. With X-Plane it's nothing (like operating in a vacuum), and quite frankly, I'd just as soon head to the airport next door for a few Robinson lessons, than simulate without "feel".For the record, I'm a fixed wing licensed pilot, and my helicopter piloting experience has been limited to 30 & 60 size radio-control, as well as several flights as passenger in different makes of helicopters. At least I learned the R/C "art" of hover, as well as many other manuvers, but may be missing out on the big picture here..L.Adamson