Greeting gentlemen,

 

Like most PMDG drivers out there, I try to keep things as real as possible in my NGX and T7 flights, preferably using procedures taken from actual SOPs and flight manuals from the different operators around the world. Part of that is setting a realitic thrust reduction and accel height for my departures. Trouble is, short of asking RW flightcrew to borrow their SOPs and AOMs, there is no way to know how airlines do it throughout the world.

 

Lately for my European and North American flights I've been departing according to ICAO PROC A, thus reducing thrust at 1500 and accelerating at 3000. And in airports where there is a specific noise abatement procedure published, I'll just use that in lieu of ICAO's procedures. 

 

However, I've no idea whether that is realistic. I suspect there are many airports where airlines have much more flexibility to choose how they set these heights, where there is a lesser need for strict adherence to noise abatement procedures. For example, according to Gol airline's SOP (the only such I managed to grab a hold of), their 737 crews should set a thrust reduction altitude of 800 and accel height of 1000 in aerodromes not restricted by noise abatement procedures. And I remember from the good old days when I could fly jumpseats at Varig Airlines that they frequently used a thrust reduction at flaps 5 and accel height at 1500 in their 777-200 fleet. But I don't know whether there were more options available and how to choose between them. 

 

I'd just like some input from you, what you generally do etc. And especially for our real world drivers who hang around the forums I kindly ask if you could disclose what precious information you might have that is company-specific regarding the aforementioned procedures. 

 

Thanks everyone.

Have you heard of NADP1 and NADP2?

 

Each Aerodrome will usually advice one of these procedures.

 

Ryanair do this.

 

Takeoff thrust

 

Passing 1000ft press N1 and accelerate to bug up speed (this reduces the thrust to climb but I can't do this manually in the NGX for some reason, SP2?)

 

Clean the aircraft

 

Passing 3000ft climb speed/vnav. 

Basically, all FAA certified aircraft will have a takeoff flight path that ends at 1500ft above airport elevation. At this point the configuration and acceleration will occur. This is the normal point that climb power will be selected. In an all engine scenario, climb power will be selected and a lower vert speed will be held to accel to 250/min maneuver. Engine out, you will level at this altitude and clean up. Once clean you will accel to your engine out climb speed and then continue the climb. Most aircraft allow an extra 5 minutes of takeoff power when engine out. All the jets Ive flown had this same profile. G5/550 does give you the option to continue a configured climb above 1500ft. We call it V2 direct to obstacle height. It also says that a higher gross weight can be achieved if the aircraft is leveled at 1500ft, cleaned and accelerated before continuing the climb.

Have you heard of NADP1 and NADP2?

 

Each Aerodrome will usually advice one of these procedures.

 

Ryanair do this.

 

Takeoff thrust

 

Passing 1000ft press N1 and accelerate to bug up speed (this reduces the thrust to climb but I can't do this manually in the NGX for some reason, SP2?)

 

Clean the aircraft

 

Passing 3000ft climb speed/vnav. 

 

Hi Allex. Thanks for the quick reply. It ws my understanding that NADP1 and 2 were superceded by ICAO Procedures A and B. But I just dug around the internet and it appears I was wrong all along and ICAO procedures A and B were in fact superceded ny NADPs.

 

Do you know when I should use one in favor of the other when the airport publications does not mention which explicitly? I just found an airbus pdf presentation that leads me to believe NADP1 is used in places where the airport is in close proximity to the urban environment whereas NADP2 is used in more remote fields. 

 

I also commonly have a lot of trouble finding where the airport authority publishes which kind of NADP or ICAO A/B it wants departing traffic to observe.

 

And finally, there are airports (at least in Brazil) which do not demand a NADP to be flown. That is where I have most trouble. What to do then? 

 

Basically, all FAA certified aircraft will have a takeoff flight path that ends at 1500ft above airport elevation. At this point the configuration and acceleration will occur. This is the normal point that climb power will be selected. In an all engine scenario, climb power will be selected and a lower vert speed will be held to accel to 250/min maneuver. Engine out, you will level at this altitude and clean up. Once clean you will accel to your engine out climb speed and then continue the climb. Most aircraft allow an extra 5 minutes of takeoff power when engine out. All the jets Ive flown had this same profile. G5/550 does give you the option to continue a configured climb above 1500ft. We call it V2 direct to obstacle height. It also says that a higher gross weight can be achieved if the aircraft is leveled at 1500ft, cleaned and accelerated before continuing the climb.

 

 

Thank you for the clarifications Rick!

 

 

Finally, sorry fellow forum users for the double post. I got a message saying my post was not successful and wrote it again. 

 

 

Passing 1000ft press N1 and accelerate to bug up speed (this reduces the thrust to climb but I can't do this manually in the NGX for some reason, SP2?)

 

Maybe this has to do with the MCP you're using in your livery. As far as I know, the newer honeywell MCP allows you to have vnav armed on the ground and engage it at 400'. It will command climb thrust and accel height according to the parameters you input in the FMC. The Collins MCP requires you to press N1, and bug up. I have to confirm in the manual though

 

 

Hi Allex. Thanks for the quick reply. It ws my understanding that NADP1 and 2 were superceded by ICAO Procedures A and B. But I just dug around the internet and it appears I was wrong all along and ICAO procedures A and B were in fact superceded ny NADPs.

 

Yeah, I was about to mention that earlier, and then my connection died as I posted.  NADPs supersede the old ICAO A/Bs.

 

 

 

Do you know when I should use one in favor of the other when the airport publications does not mention which explicitly? I just found an airbus pdf presentation that leads me to believe NADP1 is used in places where the airport is in close proximity to the urban environment whereas NADP2 is used in more remote fields. 

 

Bingo.  There's an FAA AC (advisory circular - basically, guidance on things aviation) that defines it similarly:

NADP1 - Close-in communities.

NADP2 - Distant communities.

 

 

 

And finally, there are airports (at least in Brazil) which do not demand a NADP to be flown. That is where I have most trouble. What to do then? 

 

Depends on airline SOP.

 

Interestingly, there's an ICAO document that studied various airline procedures.  Have a look to get examples (the dep section starts on page 11):

http://www.icao.int/environmental-protection/Documents/ReviewNADRD.pdf

To be honest,

 

The majority of airports in Western Europe, follow NADP2 (bug up speed at 1000ft).

 

If it isn't published, I would generally go for this proceedure.

 

If you are over particularly heavy areas, opt for NADP1, at the end of the day if it's not published use your discretion . 

 

I did this video a long while ago, so there will be a little bit of incorrect areas but generally it's there

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yvHf8iZm3cI#t=158

 

(Sorry for the view, i am way too zoomed out and high)

I usually Google "ICAO charts" for any non-US/EUROCONTROL airport and generally find a pdf or set of charts and instructions that include noise abatement procedures. For example, just had a trip yesterday KDFW LEMD Madrid and found over 30 pages of local arrival/departure instructions in addition to terminal procedures charts. LOL To tell you the truth, I find some locations very intimidating with all their constraints and restrictions most likely because all my actual experience has been in CONUS.

Emirates default on the 777 is 1000'/1000' which is NADP2 (Acceleration height/thrust reduction height), some airports require NADP1 so its pilots discretion to set 3000'/1000 or 3000/1500' or whatever they deem necessary. For example, at OMDB some SID's have 220kt speed restrictions initially or when lets say departing 30L/R but taking a SID to a east with a close in turn after departure, most guys prefer to leave the default 1000'/1000' and SPD INTV after accel. height to keep the speed back in the turn before accelerating further and cleaning up.

 

The "SOP" at EK being, that unless the departure requires a certain acceleration height/ thrust red. height for noise its the default 1000'/1000 or pilot discretion.

 

At KSFO SOP is 3500'/1000' due to stringent noise abatement regulations and Assumed temp is limited limited to 30C and APU to Pack when above 345,000kgs.

 

Off the top of my head another airport in the Emirates network that has a different accel/thrust red. height (even depending on runway used) is LSZH. Both due to noise abatement and climb gradient requirements.

 

SOP is above MLW full CLB thrust (no CLB de-rates). Emirates -300ERs do not have D-TO1 and D-TO2, only TO and assumed temp and all takeoff performance is calculated by each pilot on their own laptop using the Boeing OPT and then crosschecked before being entered.

 

---------

 

Cathay use 1000'/Flaps 5 (on a flaps 15 departure) or 1000'/Flaps 1 (on a flaps 5 departure). Above 320,000kgs flaps 15 is usually the flap setting used for takeoff. Cathay receives all their loadsheet and performance figures via ACARS uplink.

 

At EGLL/LHR its 1500'/1000' this was adopted during the 747-400 days. The GE90s are obviously far quieter but the SOP has been retained. 

 

At VHHH off 07L/R engine out accel. height is 1400' (default is 1000' including 25L/R). You will notice that on the 07L/R departures there is a 220kt speed restriction initially, associated with the first waypoint or until established on track for the following waypoint after departure.

 

Hence,

 

Above 320,000kgs the -300ER flap 5 minimum maneuvering speed is slightly above 220kts and getting around that waypoint and established on track can take time (TO thrust limited to 5 minutes unless one engine out in which case it is 10).

 

This will prevent CLB thrust from coming in at Flaps 5 or Flaps 1, and thus SOP off 07L/R at VHHH above 320,000kgs and above 2500' AGL is either: Press (CLB/CON) button to set CLB thrust, or some guys prefer to set set 1000'/2500 to begin with in the takeoff ref. page. 

 

At KSFO SOP is 3000'/ press (CLB/CON) button at/above 2500' AGL or set 3000'/2500' before departure.

 

The majority will simply leave the default 1000'/Flaps 5 or Flaps 1 depending on Flaps 15 or 5 takeoff (sometimes 20 is used for takeoff)  and just press the (CLB/CON) button at or above 2500' when calling for CLB thrust. When above 320,000kgs and restricted by speed/close in turns.

 

Source: Contacts on the B777 fleets EK and Cathay.

 

 

Greeting gentlemen,

 

Like most PMDG drivers out there, I try to keep things as real as possible in my NGX and T7 flights, preferably using procedures taken from actual SOPs and flight manuals from the different operators around the world. Part of that is setting a realitic thrust reduction and accel height for my departures. Trouble is, short of asking RW flightcrew to borrow their SOPs and AOMs, there is no way to know how airlines do it throughout the world.

 

Lately for my European and North American flights I've been departing according to ICAO PROC A, thus reducing thrust at 1500 and accelerating at 3000. And in airports where there is a specific noise abatement procedure published, I'll just use that in lieu of ICAO's procedures. 

 

However, I've no idea whether that is realistic. I suspect there are many airports where airlines have much more flexibility to choose how they set these heights, where there is a lesser need for strict adherence to noise abatement procedures. For example, according to Gol airline's SOP (the only such I managed to grab a hold of), their 737 crews should set a thrust reduction altitude of 800 and accel height of 1000 in aerodromes not restricted by noise abatement procedures. And I remember from the good old days when I could fly jumpseats at Varig Airlines that they frequently used a thrust reduction at flaps 5 and accel height at 1500 in their 777-200 fleet. But I don't know whether there were more options available and how to choose between them. 

 

I'd just like some input from you, what you generally do etc. And especially for our real world drivers who hang around the forums I kindly ask if you could disclose what precious information you might have that is company-specific regarding the aforementioned procedures. 

 

Thanks everyone.

 

 

I like to keep things as real as possible myself. 

 

Let me know if you need any addition info.

 

Leo Cal

Take a look also at EHAM Amsterdam which has something like a NADP1 and a roule about when to release the landing gear on approach

 

Michael Moe

Leo, Alex, Dan an Michael, thank you so very much for the much informative posts. 

 

I've been around these forums for 10+ years but never cease to be amazed by the amount of information readuly available and how helpfull everyone is. Thank you, truly. 

 

 

But these clarifications have revealed a new question.

 

How to execute the NADP2?

 

Because it is my understanding that with Vnav engaged, once you reach the acceleration height set in the FMC, both the 777 and the 737 will command pitch down to maintain positive climb and accelarate as you clean the aircraft. And as soon as you set flaps up as you reach the flaps 1 maneuvering speed the bug will move up to 250 knots,  whereas in NADP2 you are to maintain flaps up maneuvering speed until 3000'. Is this correct? What do the real world drivers do then? Use speed intervention until 3000'with the bug set at flaps up maneuvering speed?

 

Thank you all once again. Amazing community. Feels good to be back bugging you guys

I actually had a good play with these different NADP profiles last night, it is quite interesting the differing handling etc when using different altitudes. Thanks for all the cool info!

Unless it's mandatory on the charts, whatever I'm in the mood for  :lol:

Leo, Alex, Dan an Michael, thank you so very much for the much informative posts. 

 

I've been around these forums for 10+ years but never cease to be amazed by the amount of information readuly available and how helpfull everyone is. Thank you, truly. 

 

 

But these clarifications have revealed a new question.

 

How to execute the NADP2?

 

Because it is my understanding that with Vnav engaged, once you reach the acceleration height set in the FMC, both the 777 and the 737 will command pitch down to maintain positive climb and accelarate as you clean the aircraft. And as soon as you set flaps up as you reach the flaps 1 maneuvering speed the bug will move up to 250 knots,  whereas in NADP2 you are to maintain flaps up maneuvering speed until 3000'. Is this correct? What do the real world drivers do then? Use speed intervention until 3000'with the bug set at flaps up maneuvering speed?

 

Thank you all once again. Amazing community. Feels good to be back bugging you guys

 

 

Have a look here . Very informative

 

http://www.b737mrg.net/downloads/b737mrg_noise.pdf

 

 

NADP1 you will wait to clean your Flaps until you reach 3000feet. NADP2 is the "normal" climb out most of the times at least in europe .

 

Have a look on FMC Takeoff page 2/2.

 

NADP1 you will set the acceleration to 3000 and reduction at 1000/1500 feet

 

Michael